Can Red Mage aoe be less boring?

[Ariomi]

It has at least 3.

I don't get the complaint unless people are just using one skill set then in other threads people complain about Healers not using more of their skill set....

Red Mage has 2 Gcd Aoes. Contre Sixte's main problem is that it's cooldown is so long, that it's more then likely still on cooldown. It's in the same category as Dragonfire Dive. It's a decent aoe, but it's cooldown is a little much for it's potency. It's the equivalent of a verthunder aoe, that decreases damage the more enemies it hurts.


And in dungeons, When you have 4 or more adds, Scatter is the best thing you can do, as you getting 100 potency per add. Verthunder is only 300 potency, so you are losing 100 potency if you interweave it. I'm not saying you don't use your Ogcd's. But when you actually look at it's useable aoes, it's just boring. Scatter isn't even visually satisfying. Holy, Sonic Thrust, and quite a few other aoes are at least visually very nice.

And I am purely talking about Aoe Skills. I use corps a corps, flèche, contre sixte etc. But compared to other classes at 70, Red Mage's aoe is just boring when they clearly have moves that look like they are supposed to be Aoes.

You Said Ninja's aoe was boring at 50, when they still have more aoe at 50 then Red mage.

let's actually compare all their aoe at level 50
Ninja - Deathblossom, Mudras, Kassastu.
Red Mage - Scatter.
Blm Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Flare, Freeze (still an aoe)
Smn Enkindle, Shadowflare, Bane, Pet Aoes including Radiant Shield and Flaming Crush
Monk - Howling fist, rockbreaker, Arm of the destroyer even, and then you can perfect balance to spam Rockbreaker.
Drg - Doomspike, Dragonfire Dive.
Bard - Quick Noct, Rain of death,
Mch - Spread Shot, Rook auto turret.
Samurai - Fuga, Mangetsu, Oka, Tenka Goken

Notice how Red mage has the least of any Aoe. And while I get that it's a duelist, It needs something more then just scatter dude >.>

[Deceptus]

let's actually compare all their aoe at level 50
Ninja - Deathblossom, Mudras, Kassastu.
Red Mage - Scatter.
Blm Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Flare, Freeze (still an aoe)
Smn Enkindle, Shadowflare, Bane, Pet Aoes including Radiant Shield and Flaming Crush
Monk - Howling fist, rockbreaker, Arm of the destroyer even, and then you can perfect balance to spam Rockbreaker.
Drg - Doomspike, Dragonfire Dive.
Bard - Quick Noct, Rain of death,
Mch - Spread Shot, Rook auto turret.
Samurai - Fuga, Mangetsu, Oka, Tenka Goken

Notice how Red mage has the least of any Aoe. And while I get that it's a duelist, It needs something more then just scatter dude >.>

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges to support your argument. So many of those are limited by TP, MP, or have long CD's. Double Scatter is extremely potent, as is Scatter into Thunder/Aero.

If there's a lot of enemies and you aren't topping the dps as a RDM you're doing something EXTREMELY wrong.

[Ariomi]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges to support your argument. So many of those are limited by TP, MP, or have long CD's. Double Scatter is extremely potent, as is Scatter into Thunder/Aero.

If there's a lot of enemies and you aren't topping the dps as a RDM you're doing something EXTREMELY wrong.

It is apples to apples. If you just don't know anything about any other classes, they may seem like apples to oranges but they are all the same. Scatter is Red Mage's go to Gcd Aoe. Just like Deathblossom is Ninja's go to Gcd Aoe, Or Doomspike for Dragoon.

Scatter is no different then Deathblossom, Doomspike, Quick Noct, Spread Shot, etc. As they are all spammable aoes, that use up a classes resources. They maybe slightly different then each other, But in function, and use they all are the same. A Red Mage can use Scatter until their Mp runs dry, as much as a Blm can Fire 2 until they ran out of mana, or a Bard runs out of tp using quick Nock. Bard and Red Mage, only need to press a little button to refresh their tp/mp, and can keep spamming until their heart's content.

The only thing worth mentioning, is while Scatter costs less to cast, it also is one of the weakest potency wise. Dualcast Scatter is 200 potency over the course of two gcds. Deathblossom is 110 potency, Doomspike is 130. Dualcast Scatter is the equivalent of doomspike 2x. And while dualcast scatter is 200 potency, Two doomspikes are 260 potency.

At level 50 Scatter is Red Mage's only aoe.

In addition to Quick Nock, Bard's have rain of death, A 15 second Aoe Ogcd. This can be reset by Dots critting.
In addition to Deathblossom, Ninja's have Mudras. Every 20 seconds, a ninja can choose out of several attacks, including two aoes.
In addition to Scatter, Red Mage has nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Bupkis. (at level 50)


Oh, and You are far mistaken if you think Red Mage should be anywhere near the top of the charts of the aggro list when it comes to aoes.
Let me educate you about a class called Black Mage. Fire 2 with full Astral Fire does about 150 potency per add. (Only about 50% more then scatter.) Blm's also have infinite Mana, and can spam this almost forever. Or a Blm can use Flare, 260 potency aoe that can be buffed by Astral Fire.

At level 70, Black Mage gets an aoe called Foul. 650 potency aoe every thirty seconds or so, If they play their cards right. This is more then twice as potent as Red Mage's strongest aoe, and with a lower cooldown.

Contre Sixte - 300 Potency - 45 Second cooldown. Red Mage's strongest aoe.
Foul - 650 Potency - 30 Second Cooldown. Black Mage's Strongest aoe.

I want something to Supplement Red Mage's aoe. Not necessarily make it stonger, But definitely make it more interesting.

[AiharaMizuki]

Contre Sixte - 300 Potency - 45 Second cooldown. Red Mage's strongest aoe.
Foul - 650 Potency - 30 Second Cooldown. Black Mage's Strongest aoe.

I want something to Supplement Red Mage's aoe. Not necessarily make it stonger, But definitely make it more interesting.

Yet you are comparing the dps difference between two casters where one is designed to deal higher damage but with less utility. Could say RDM's Embolden is also just as strong in AoE pulls.

list of AoE skills for DPS

Geirskogul has long cooldown. Doom Spike and Sonic Thrust are TP-hungry as is the case with all melee aoe gcds. Nostrand takes too much time to build up.
Monk's Howling Fist is 60s cooldown. Bard's AoE is basically just dotting everything and spam Rain of Death from Ballad procs or just non-stop Quick Nock Spam. Mch's Ricochet and Flamethrower is 60s cooldown, Hypercharge and Turret Overdrive is 120s and mostly it's just Spread Shot spam.

My only problem with it, is that it's boring. Go grab a Red Mage, and tell me how exciting it is spamming scatter every 50 dungeon.

Every class is "boring" to AoE dps in lvl 50 dungeons except SAM, SMN and BLM.

The only thing worth mentioning, is while Scatter costs less to cast, it also is one of the weakest potency wise. Dualcast Scatter is 200 potency over the course of two gcds. Deathblossom is 110 potency, Doomspike is 130.

Again, cost to use. Why are we comparing potencies anyway?

[Ariomi]

Yet you are comparing the dps difference between two casters where one is designed to deal higher damage but with less utility. Could say RDM's Embolden is also just as strong in AoE pulls.

Every class is "boring" to AoE dps in lvl 50 dungeons except SAM, SMN and BLM.

Again, cost to use. Why are we comparing potencies anyway?

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.And Cost to use doesn't matter, when Red Mage naturally doesn't use much Mana ever.


When it come's to Blm, It's the biggest example of how boring Red Mage's aoe is.

Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Thunder 4, Thunder 4 Procs, Multiple Flares with Umbral Hearts, Foul, with Enokian, Ley Lines, and Surecast.
This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.
Blm is currently at the same Level of Dps of Samurai. Something Red Mage will never have. I would honestly prefer Scatter to be changed to make the next attack an aoe. Atleast then I would have a hotbar's worth of options of Aoe.

Dragoon's Aoe is tp hungry, but like I mentioned in the post before, Doom Thrust, Sonic Thrust combo. Gierskogul, Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond is still more then what Red Mage has. Both in potency and Numbers. I'm partially surprised they didn't keep Ring of thorns and add it into the Gcd Aoe combo. Regardless, Still more then what Red Mage has, with Sonic Thrust lengthening Botd time and giving access to Geirskogul. When you do have access to Nastrond, in total its 960 Aoe potency, with no fall off damage. That's kinda insane.

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

Any class that has more then 3 moves, still outclasses Red Mage. I wouldn't mind Red Mage's Aoe costing more mana, If they actually got some.
Mana costs on Red Mage basically a non issue ever. Something to spend the Mana on, is fine by me.

[EllieShadeflare]

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.And Cost to use doesn't matter, when Red Mage naturally doesn't use much Mana ever.

Hemorrhaging TP isn't ever a good idea for any class that relies on it. That's why they removed the extraneous AoEs that didn't have a point, and reduced TP costs for basic skills.

When it come's to Blm, It's the biggest example of how boring Red Mage's aoe is.

Oh boy. I'll save my little diatribe after you explain.

Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Thunder 4, Thunder 4 Procs, Multiple Flares with Umbral Hearts, Foul, with Enokian, Ley Lines, and Surecast.
This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.

There's no point to Blizzard II, because it's absolute garbage. Freeze objectively replaces it, but blech. Thunder IV procs are LUCKBASED, surecast is available to all casters and Enochian and Ley Lines aren't AoEs to begin with.
Also, you can't compare Black Mage's playstyle to Red Mage because DPS is a lot more varied in playstyles with each job having different strengths and weaknesses. Like, this is a mistake at best and disingenuous at WORST. Black Mage is good at AoE because that's its DESIGN to be the AoE king of Stormblood.

Blm is currently at the same Level of Dps of Samurai. Something Red Mage will never have. I would honestly prefer Scatter to be changed to make the next attack an aoe. Atleast then I would have a hotbar's worth of options of Aoe.

Are you BLIND? No seriously, are you blind and unaware of complaints and criticisms of Red Mage? Even after the buff to Black Mage allowed them to fully make use of their Umbral Hearts for their single target rotation, RED MAGE MORE THAN MAKES UP THE DIFFERENCE THROUGH INTUITIVE AND SIMPLE ROTATIONS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...0_of_each_job/

Granted, there is a caveat. This was two months ago. Recently, the strongest caster dps in Savage and whatnot have proven not to be Black Mage... but rather, of all things, Summoner. In fact, on FFlogs, SMN has been proven (when mastered) to hit a reliable 5k to almost 6k dps, much like Samurai, whilst Black Mage struggles to match 5k.

Dragoon's Aoe is tp hungry, but like I mentioned in the post before, Doom Thrust, Sonic Thrust combo. Gierskogul, Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond is still more then what Red Mage has. Both in potency and Numbers. I'm partially surprised they didn't keep Ring of thorns and add it into the Gcd Aoe combo. Regardless, Still more then what Red Mage has, with Sonic Thrust lengthening Botd time and giving access to Geirskogul. When you do have access to Nastrond, in total its 960 Aoe potency, with no fall off damage. That's kinda insane.

Except Dragoons have constantly complained how boring the Nastrond phase is, since it's essentially just "Spam Nastrond until you lose Life of the Dragon" and you need to build it up in a minute or two. Also, you seem to pretend that Contre Sexte doesn't exist for the point of building your argument, which is 100% disingenuous.

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

...you basically had bards informing you just how boring the rotation actually is, and you basically throw them out the window. okay.jpg

Any class that has more then 3 moves, still outclasses Red Mage. I wouldn't mind Red Mage's Aoe costing more mana, If they actually got some.
Mana costs on Red Mage basically a non issue ever. Something to spend the Mana on, is fine by me.

More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

[Ariomi]

More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

Small typo on my part. Sharpcast was what I meant to type instead of Surecast. Sharpcast guarantees that Thunder 4 Procs. No rng involved. Guarantee proc. So, about Thunder 4 RNG... Every time it's off cooldown, go ahead and enjoy Using that proc.

Also a few little things. You seem to think I'm talking about single target dps. When I in fact, talking about Aoe only. (And according to the Max tab of Ff logs on Savage Content, [URL="https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100[/URL] Appears to be, OH LOOK. Samurai and Blm. Shocker. Was merely to showing a class that has a good numbers of Aoe. Like Thunder 4, Sharpcast, Umbral Hearts, Flare, Fire 2. And Looking at Blm being #2 on the spot, looks like it's in a good spot to me. Granted, everything can be made better. Any complaints about Blm are entirely valid, Just like How I dislike how lack Luster Red mage aoe is and how that valid that is.

Red Mage is great single target. No complaints. But when it comes to Aoes, Red Mage suddenly drops its whole gimmick. There is no White or black magic aoe spell. Only scatter. I would happily replace scatter and Tether for Verwater and verblizzard if they were different aoes. Ironic out f that long cast you agree with me. Switching back and forth between two Aoe spells would be much more interesting then casting Scatter non stop any time there are more then 4 adds.

Any class that has more then an Ogcd every 45 seconds, 3 Moulinets whenever you get the gauge for it, and Scatter spam is preferable to me over Red Mage. That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc. Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has. And they use all of it. Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

[AiharaMizuki]

I want something to Supplement Red Mage's aoe. Not necessarily make it stonger, But definitely make it more interesting.

Yet this discussion has gone to comparing the potency of RDM's AoE to other classes. Every other class is in the same boat minus BLM, SMN, SAM and NIN. It'll be 1-2 GCD skills whilst weaving in OGCDs, even if the OGCDs are single target. Then back to the same GCD skill spams until the other skills are off cooldown. Manafication, Acceleration, Embolden, Impact, Fleche, Contre Sixte, Corps-a-corps, Displacement, Scatter, Enchanted Moulinet. Even BLM uses roughly the same amount of skills, just the fact that they're designed to be the AoE king for caster dps doesn't make RDM's AoE "boring".

Also as many others have pointed out, Bards have less AoE skills than RDM.
Dragoons rarely ever get to a point where they can use Nastrond during AoE pulls unless the other DPS is just standing to the side looking pretty.
Monks wont use Perfect Balance if the pull is right before the boss, Arm of Destroyer is too TP hungry.
MCH's have Spreadshot while the others are ogcds with long cooldown (Ricochet is 100 less potency and 15s longer cooldown compared to Contre, Flamethrower is 1 minute, Hypercharge is 2 minutes, Bishop Overdrive is 2 minutes).
And these classes can and will run out of TP if it takes a long time to aoe the mobs down. TP song isn't always available, Goad is only available if there's a melee dps and that's if they bring goad and actually uses it, Invigorate isnt always useful when the cooldown is 120s.

Stop comparing RDM to BLM. Yea BLM has more AoE that deals more damage. But they don't get Dualcast + Veraise or Vercure for when shit hits the fan. They don't get Embolden to juice up party member's DPS. They don't get the mobility of RDM. They have nothing in their native skill tree that actually helps anyone else in any way while everyone else has at least some utility they bring (yes, even Monk).

[Ariomi]

Yet this discussion has gone to comparing the potency of RDM's AoE to other classes.

The reason for that, is that Red Mage's aoe is deficient in general. Not only in how moves are Aoe, But in the potency of them as well. They are lacking in every regard.

I'll refer you to this comment.

Scatter spam almost made me want to quit leveling RDM. Probably would have if not for the goddess title.

Scatter has the second lowest PPS of all your everyday AoE skills ahead of only MCH when they don't have bullets. I guess there's Tri-Bind and such, but yeah.

And most of your points about all classes having boring Aoe is mute.
Samurai, Ninja, Blm, Smn, all have great Aoe. Dragoon Machinist and Monk have decent Aoe (4 moves+ each). It's a fact that most Dps roles have more and stronger Aoe. And that's more Aoe, while each class still have their specific OGcds.
The only class that's even in the same Area is bard. (Which is Ironic considering Bard Aoe used be to really good. R.I.P. Fire Arrow and Wide Volley). So in this regard, 7 out of the 8 other dps classes without a shadow of a doubt have Stronger, More interesting Aoe.

If Red Mage Aoe was strong, It would be different, It was interesting, it would be different.
Red Mage's whole Shtick is switching between White and Black Magic, and yet... While there are two versions of most spells, There's only scatter.