Can Red Mage aoe be less boring?

[EllieShadeflare]

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.And Cost to use doesn't matter, when Red Mage naturally doesn't use much Mana ever.

Hemorrhaging TP isn't ever a good idea for any class that relies on it. That's why they removed the extraneous AoEs that didn't have a point, and reduced TP costs for basic skills.

When it come's to Blm, It's the biggest example of how boring Red Mage's aoe is.

Oh boy. I'll save my little diatribe after you explain.

Fire 2, Blizzard 2, Thunder 4, Thunder 4 Procs, Multiple Flares with Umbral Hearts, Foul, with Enokian, Ley Lines, and Surecast.
This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.

There's no point to Blizzard II, because it's absolute garbage. Freeze objectively replaces it, but blech. Thunder IV procs are LUCKBASED, surecast is available to all casters and Enochian and Ley Lines aren't AoEs to begin with.
Also, you can't compare Black Mage's playstyle to Red Mage because DPS is a lot more varied in playstyles with each job having different strengths and weaknesses. Like, this is a mistake at best and disingenuous at WORST. Black Mage is good at AoE because that's its DESIGN to be the AoE king of Stormblood.

Blm is currently at the same Level of Dps of Samurai. Something Red Mage will never have. I would honestly prefer Scatter to be changed to make the next attack an aoe. Atleast then I would have a hotbar's worth of options of Aoe.

Are you BLIND? No seriously, are you blind and unaware of complaints and criticisms of Red Mage? Even after the buff to Black Mage allowed them to fully make use of their Umbral Hearts for their single target rotation, RED MAGE MORE THAN MAKES UP THE DIFFERENCE THROUGH INTUITIVE AND SIMPLE ROTATIONS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...0_of_each_job/

Granted, there is a caveat. This was two months ago. Recently, the strongest caster dps in Savage and whatnot have proven not to be Black Mage... but rather, of all things, Summoner. In fact, on FFlogs, SMN has been proven (when mastered) to hit a reliable 5k to almost 6k dps, much like Samurai, whilst Black Mage struggles to match 5k.

Dragoon's Aoe is tp hungry, but like I mentioned in the post before, Doom Thrust, Sonic Thrust combo. Gierskogul, Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond is still more then what Red Mage has. Both in potency and Numbers. I'm partially surprised they didn't keep Ring of thorns and add it into the Gcd Aoe combo. Regardless, Still more then what Red Mage has, with Sonic Thrust lengthening Botd time and giving access to Geirskogul. When you do have access to Nastrond, in total its 960 Aoe potency, with no fall off damage. That's kinda insane.

Except Dragoons have constantly complained how boring the Nastrond phase is, since it's essentially just "Spam Nastrond until you lose Life of the Dragon" and you need to build it up in a minute or two. Also, you seem to pretend that Contre Sexte doesn't exist for the point of building your argument, which is 100% disingenuous.

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

...you basically had bards informing you just how boring the rotation actually is, and you basically throw them out the window. okay.jpg

Any class that has more then 3 moves, still outclasses Red Mage. I wouldn't mind Red Mage's Aoe costing more mana, If they actually got some.
Mana costs on Red Mage basically a non issue ever. Something to spend the Mana on, is fine by me.

More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

[AiharaMizuki]

Kinda the whole point of this was to show how little Aoe Red Mage has

Little doesn't mean boring. Most classes uses only 3-4 skills during AoE pulls. No, no matter how much you insist, it takes way too long to get Life of the Dragon. Assuming you hit Jump, Spineshatter and Mirage Dive exactly right, it takes about 150 seconds to be able to use Nastrond and unless you're the only one doing the AoE dps, by that time most if not all the mobs are dead or close to being dead.

Even Bard is more interesting, as you have to keep songs up, with Rain of Death being 15 seconds or a proc resetting it. Oh Mana cost a thing? Tp song.

Have you ever played bard at 70? Generally, songs used in AoE pulls are Ballad and Paeon with Ballad being the only one that will allow you to get a recast proc on Rain of Death/Bloodletter. If you consider applying DoTs to all mobs and hitting RoD whenever it procs is fun, sure. But once Ballad falls off and you swap to Paeon, have fun spamming Quick Nock.

This is more about Blm's aoe arsenal in Aoe, with showing how strong it is, to show how deficient Red Mage Aoe is.

You brought up OGCD buffs like Enochian and Ley Lines but you glossed over Embolden. Manafication allows you to reach that 90/90 mana sweetspot to use 3 Moulinets faster. Embolden, again, is always useful in AoE pulls unless you get a DRK and another caster dps.

Being tp hungry hardly matters in dungeons, when you will regen all of it back before the next pull. And Tp costs don't matter, as long as Skills such as Invigorate, Goad, Purification exist, Tp song exist.

There has been plenty of stories, in the Tales of Duty Finder post, about bards/machinists who does not use any tp/mp song, melees without goad. Invigorate only adds an extra 3-4 gcd on its own and has a 120s cooldown. With how the dungeons are laid out in SB, most dungeons have 2-3 pulls in between bosses. You will not have Invigorate for every single pull.

I want Red Mage aoe not to be sleep inducing.

AoE pulls generally gets dealt with so quickly that if you're "falling asleep" while you're doing it, probably should log off and actually go to sleep.

[Eloah]

Couldn't you just cycle thru your other skills while throwing in Scatter every so often so that its not boring... maybe?

[Elkanah]

Legit haven't seen Blizzard 2 used since it was a cross skill and I had it on SMN.

Haven't seen Blizzard 2 since ARR days lol. What's this Blizzard II anymore? Who still uses that in SB? >_>

[QT_Melon]

Couldn't you just cycle thru your other skills while throwing in Scatter every so often so that its not boring... maybe?

That was already shot down. I guess they want confettis and a skill called pinata to beat enemies with :P

In all seriousness tho, I don't understand, people who main other classes are telling this person it's not great with their jobs either...but I guess the grass is greener.

[Ariomi]

More skills =/= better. Occasionally, many of those skills prove to be utter garbage, like Blizzard II and more often than not, Sleep. Still, I wish we didn't have Tether and instead got Verwater and Verblizzard as AoEs.

Small typo on my part. Sharpcast was what I meant to type instead of Surecast. Sharpcast guarantees that Thunder 4 Procs. No rng involved. Guarantee proc. So, about Thunder 4 RNG... Every time it's off cooldown, go ahead and enjoy Using that proc.

Also a few little things. You seem to think I'm talking about single target dps. When I in fact, talking about Aoe only. (And according to the Max tab of Ff logs on Savage Content, [URL="https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100[/URL] Appears to be, OH LOOK. Samurai and Blm. Shocker. Was merely to showing a class that has a good numbers of Aoe. Like Thunder 4, Sharpcast, Umbral Hearts, Flare, Fire 2. And Looking at Blm being #2 on the spot, looks like it's in a good spot to me. Granted, everything can be made better. Any complaints about Blm are entirely valid, Just like How I dislike how lack Luster Red mage aoe is and how that valid that is.

Red Mage is great single target. No complaints. But when it comes to Aoes, Red Mage suddenly drops its whole gimmick. There is no White or black magic aoe spell. Only scatter. I would happily replace scatter and Tether for Verwater and verblizzard if they were different aoes. Ironic out f that long cast you agree with me. Switching back and forth between two Aoe spells would be much more interesting then casting Scatter non stop any time there are more then 4 adds.

Any class that has more then an Ogcd every 45 seconds, 3 Moulinets whenever you get the gauge for it, and Scatter spam is preferable to me over Red Mage. That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc. Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has. And they use all of it. Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

[QT_Melon]

Ok is the argument for more or is the argument for less boring (because they aren't mutually exclusive)? You seem to bounce quite around here. Yes, AOE is mainly boring for a lot of classes because any kind of repetition even if it has one more skill than what you're complaining about is generally boring. Dungeons run pretty scripted. At this point you're blaming the symptom as the cause.

Dungeons are mainly the cause of doing longer durations of AOE. So therefore dungeons are boring because it's the same old thing; for about everyone having to AOE.

[dinnertime]

Haven't seen Blizzard 2 since ARR days lol. What's this Blizzard II anymore? Who still uses that in SB? >_>

Nobody in their right mind would use it as a BLM but it's useful on a SMN and SCH, except they can't use it anymore.

[EllieShadeflare]

Small typo on my part. Sharpcast was what I meant to type instead of Surecast. Sharpcast guarantees that Thunder 4 Procs. No rng involved. Guarantee proc. So, about Thunder 4 RNG... Every time it's off cooldown, go ahead and enjoy Using that proc.

Said guaranteed proc is once every minute... and still is part of the GCD, where as Contre Sexte can be linked after a spell.

Also a few little things. You seem to think I'm talking about single target dps. When I in fact, talking about Aoe only. (And according to the Max tab of Ff logs on Savage Content, [URL="https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100[/URL] Appears to be, OH LOOK. Samurai and Blm. Shocker. Was merely to showing a class that has a good numbers of Aoe. Like Thunder 4, Sharpcast, Umbral Hearts, Flare, Fire 2. And Looking at Blm being #2 on the spot, looks like it's in a good spot to me. Granted, everything can be made better. Any complaints about Blm are entirely valid, Just like How I dislike how lack Luster Red mage aoe is and how that valid that is.

And here's the thing. Black Mage's design is entirely to be a pure DPS (as is DRG). You'll notice that there's literally nothing in a BLM's native skill list that is designed to synergize with anyone else, nor are there any support options. Also, Fire II becomes utterly useless once you get the enhanced Umbral Hearts since there's no reason to NOT just turn Doubleflare into your whole AoE Fire rotation with a few Thunder IVs here and there.

Red Mage is great single target. No complaints. But when it comes to Aoes, Red Mage suddenly drops its whole gimmick. There is no White or black magic aoe spell. Only scatter. I would happily replace scatter and Tether for Verwater and verblizzard if they were different aoes. Ironic out f that long cast you agree with me. Switching back and forth between two Aoe spells would be much more interesting then casting Scatter non stop any time there are more then 4 adds.

Yeah, I'm not gonna agree with removing scatter. Tether shouldn't have been added though and I can easily admit that having Verblizzard and Verwater would be nice. But there is no NEED for it. Red Mage's AoE game is fine. In fact, you don't even need to save your Moulinet for a rapid 3-use, you can expend them as often as you want. It only does need 30 Black and White per usage for 200 potency. Also, Red Mage is one of the only few DPSes who can safely ignore dropoff and still have 200 potency in a direct burst attack almost on command which is pretty damn powerful. And then there's the sheer damage potential of Scatter as well, which is also better than most other DPSes. oh yeah, and Contre Sext.

In fact, if Verblizzard and Verwater were added, I'd actually want them to maintain them having longer cast times to combo with Scatter. But again, what would be the point, beyond getting quicker Moulinets? Scatter and Moulinet are really all you need and are plenty sufficient for taking down most groups of mobs. Beyond "keeping the mechanic", it's really difficult justifying giving RDM Verblizzard and Verwater.

Any class that has more then an Ogcd every 45 seconds, 3 Moulinets whenever you get the gauge for it, and Scatter spam is preferable to me over Red Mage. That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc. Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has. And they use all of it. Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

Bard only has two AoEs, PERIOD, where as Red Mage actually has three. Any Bard can tell you that it's pretty damn boring spamming Quick Nock until you get Rain of Death is pretty boring, especially since you only get 100 potency per Rain of Death, and 110 for every Quick Nock.

As for Dragoon, you still functionally only have 3 AoEs. Doom Spike -> Sonic Thrust is still boring and hemorrhages their TP and is effectively the same button, you can only Dragonfire Dive every two minutes, Geirskogul got seriously nerfed and Nastrond is really boring and unfulfilling and is literally just a boosted Geirskogul but less impressive than it sounds. Like woo, you upgrade from 220 potency every 35s to 320 potency every 10s. Also your Life of the Dragon wastes away and this is the only real hoorah to goes into it. That boost that you've been building up to dies not with a roar... but with a whimper.

Nobody in their right mind would use it as a BLM but it's useful on a SMN and SCH, except they can't use it anymore.

To be fair, SCH gained a far better replacement in Miasma 2 version 2, but SMN could use some AoE love. Wanna talk about a gimped and boring job for AoE? Look at poor, poor SMN, who lost much of their teeth in AoE.

[AiharaMizuki]

Dungeons are mainly the cause of doing longer durations of AOE. So therefore dungeons are boring because it's the same old thing; for about everyone having to AOE.

This. This. This.

Granted some classes have more/better AoE in their kit but in general, it's mostly just spamming 1-2 buttons.

Dragoon's don't like Nastrond for whatever reason, It's still more aoe then red mage has.

It's not that Dragoons don't like Nastrond, it's that it takes a lot of time to actually get Life of the Dragon. Like I've said, if you use Jumps, Spineshatter Dive and Mirage Dive THE MOMENT they are off cooldown, it will take you at least 150 seconds to actually get Life of the Dragon during which you can use 3 or 4 Nastronds. In most cases where the other DPS isn't just standing to the side single targetting like a lemon, by the time you get Life of the Dragon, most if not all mobs are either dead or close to dying. Nastrond, despite the low cooldown on it's tooltip, is not this AoE beast Dragoons can use every single AoE pull like you're implying. If they can use it, they'll use it but when paired with a competent DPS who knows what they're doing, they rarely get to a point where they need it or even get to use it.

Whenever Dragonfire Dive get's it's cooldown lowered, or gives Dive ready, Most dragoon's complaints won't be a thing anymore.

Dragonfire Dive as of now has lower potency and longer cooldown than Contre. Even if they do give Dive Ready, it will only shorten the time required to reach Life of the Dragon. Dragoons will still complaint about how Nastrond is just meh and how tight the window is.

As someone already said, BLM is designed to be just pure damage, was the AoE king in ARR, took a step back in HW but now they're back to being the AoE king. Other classes don't benefit anything of having a BLM except a caster with just high DPS. RDM on the other hand has Embolden, which you glossed over. Take that into account during AoE pulls especially when you are paired with a physical dps and a PLD/WAR.

That includes Bard, as Rain of death is a 15 sec cooldown that can reset through a proc.

Proc only happens when Ballad is up which is just 30 seconds, after which you are either using Paeon (faster Quick Nock spams with full Repertoire stacks) or Minuet (Pitch Perfect is available but it's single target so you're still doing Quick Nock spams for AoE). Rain of Death is 15s cooldown yes, but that's TWO skills that they're using for AoE. You're advocating for RDM to have more/interesting AoE skills but you're saying you prefer Bard who is only using TWO skills for AoEs, one of which is an OGCD that has a short cooldown so you're just pressing it more compared to Contre and the other is a Conal GCD. Like SE didn't even give bard the other AoE they had (idr the name) which is a longer ranged, circular aoe.