Dear Tanks and DPS

[QT_Melon]

You asked a question, I answered it.

What, that wasn't even the question. The question was about clearing it without healer DPS. I'm pretty sure each clear has some contributed Healer DPS.

[shape]

The should healers do dmg topic needs to further broken into should players with endgame mindsets pass over into DF roullete content. lets face this is where the the flames for this topic started.

Should Healers dps, Yes
Does it matter if one does not during daily roulette, not really
Is it worth raging in game if they do or don't during easier content, not really , if your raging your not focused, if your not focused your also to blame.

While groups are on progression the healers dmg is often required to meet the dps check. But things should never stay like this. The dps from healers should be applied to decreased kill times, once things are on farm.
But isn't this the case for every member of the static regardless of role.

[QT_Melon]

if your raging your not focused, if your not focused your also to blame.

(you're ...as in "you are")

Huh? You know you can still focus and do multiple things? That means you can see what other party members are doing while doing your own thing.

Example I have friends that will run with me in dungeons in DPS so they may not be playing bard but the are familiar with what happens when I run with them. They do get annoyed when they get a subpar bard that doesn't multi-dot on trash packs and don't use AOE either. They can feel when things take longer to kill because they've run it enough to know their GCDs/oGCDs are back up during certain parts of the fight.

[Sebazy]

....

Your first point is of note as you're absolutely correct, it's a clash of play styles that invariably ends up with these kinds of posts. In reality, both the raid and casual 'scenes' are correct in their relevant content and the proper context, it's when they meet in the middle and the waters get muddied that things stop being a nice and easy shade of either black or white.

So leading on to your second comment, you're correct in that it doesn't matter if a healer doesn't DPS during the daily roulette. But if they have aspirations of doing progression content, it's perhaps wise to use those roulettes to build good habits and practices that they can use as a foundation for their raid play.

On your last point, I think you're oversimplifying it, again, it'd help to know what experience you have as it'd help me understand and appreciate your point of view better.

A good example of where things just aren't that simple would be A12S. The enrage check for that fight was actually pretty generous, DPS isn't an issue right? The unfortunate reality of the situation was that even with Echo and full 270 gear, most PFs and even many casual statics needed some healer DPS to get a kill. Why? It wasn't because of the enrage, but rather because they needed to kill it before the second set of fountains wiped the run as very few pugs could handle the movement and puddle placement. Zurvan was another shining example of this sort of faux DPS requirement.

Lastly, your opening point reminds me of a suggestion I made on these forums around 3.4-3.5, I'll have to try and find it as it wasn't particularly popular back then (which surprised me frankly).

[Kabooa]

What, that wasn't even the question. The question was about clearing it without healer DPS. I'm pretty sure each clear has some contributed Healer DPS.

It was a weighted question. Those are bad form to begin with, though the demand initially, as read, was to be shown a group that 'can' (as in, is capable) of clearing O4S without the healers dealing damage.

The top 100 groups easily pass this requirement, and I didn't feel the need to invest more effort into this, especially given the direction this turned. He then asked what sort of stress that puts on the DPS (Which, as stated, as most commonly in the 70-80%, with fair amount of 90s, and uncommonly, but present, those in the 40-50% range).

As for what he intended, it doesn't exist, plain and simple. It could exist, but it won't.

[Sebazy]

Aha, found it:

Quite simply put, when SE add new dungeons, they will run through them extensively with various group setups as part of the testing and validation process. Data from these tentative runs can be taken and it'd be pretty straight forward to work out a typical DPS figure for each job right out of the gate in every new dungeon from this point forward.

SE could then take this figure, and apply it against a players initial clear.

*drumroll please*

This could then be saved in that characters data as a hidden expert roulette match making rank much akin to the MMR systems you see in games such as Overwatch.

I will stress right now that this suggestion revolves around this number being completely hidden from the player, you won't be able to see your own rank, nor will you be able to see anyone else's.

As you complete your expert roulette, your performance relative to the initial baseline will tweak your ranking up or down accordingly.

This ranking would then be used to try and skew who you get grouped with in your expert roulette. It wouldn't prevent two players with vastly different rankings from being grouped if that's all that's in the queue at that moment, but for example, in the case of a surplus of healers and DPS in the queue, it would group the highest ranks in one group (aka raiders who likely just want big pulls and a fast clear), and the lowest ranks in the other (who are more likely to want to take it easy and potentially lack the gear, confidence or experience for speed runs and big pulls).

In my eyes this is beautiful on multiple levels:

Those that simply want to speed run the dungeon as fast as they can will have a better chance of getting a group with like minded people, less frustration and salt, faster runs, good times.

Those that simply want to take it easy, plod though the dungeon and are either too timid, simply aren't bothered or just don't have a good enough grasp of the game yet will also get put with other people who are much more likely to go at a slower steadier pace and be content doing so.

This would also provide an incentive (Something this game desperately needs) for someone seeking quicker expert roulettes to actually work on their own personal standard of play, the better they do, the more likely they are to get stronger party members and thus a nice double dip on the likelihood of a quick clear.

Granted it’s nearly 3am and I’m half asleep here, but that strikes me as a three way win for all concerned?

To clarify, this idea only applies to expert roulette, it simply wouldn’t be fair to the player base overall to apply this to trials and 24man content.

In closing, the three big details to keep in mind with this idea:

The match making rank would have be hidden and completely invisible to all.

The match making rank would only be considered for expert roulette.

It would not make or break players being able to be thrown in with each other, rather it would just be an advisory to better sort and group a surplus of players (aka healers and dps) into more likeminded parties to minimise frustration and potential harassment.

[QT_Melon]

It was a weighted question.

No, it wasn't. It wasn't weighted towards anything. The question was easy to follow. You spindoctored it.

[Kabooa]

No, it wasn't. It wasn't weighted towards anything. The question was easy to follow. You spindoctored it.

It's not doctoring something to look at a question beyond face value.

The request innocent enough. 'Show me a group that's cleared this content without Healers dealing damage.' While I'm certain that of the thousands of clears, there might be one, I frankly don't want to sift through every single available log (And those are only a fraction of the actual clears), to find it. Be honest, would you?

So from the start, you are given a request that is inherently -weighted- against you. As another example of what a weighted request is, show me a United States President that's a woman, or show me a United States President of Japanese descent.

So while finding such an example of the obviously weighted request would not only be a highly inefficient use of time, it might not yield fruit to begin with.

Thus we take another approach. We see if the scenario could exist based on existing factual data. And it can. It may even exist in some undocumented log as it is, but without a record we can't prove that.

So in the absence of being able to provide a documented example of the ludicrously weighted request, we simply show a scenario, backed by statistics and data, showing that it could exist were the criteria being met.

If that's spindoctoring, well.

Alright, guilty then I guess.

[Taika]

It's not doctoring something to look at a question beyond face value.

The request innocent enough. 'Show me a group that's cleared this content without Healers dealing damage.'

The spin doctoring was how you took the question out of it's context. Of course it might have been unintentional, since it took me a while to edit my whole post in (I was cooking ). But even after you must have seen the whole message, you intentionally ignored the context, thus spinning my point. Of course, your post works as a tangent to the topic, but as I already pointed out earlier, it really has no relevance to the discussion (unless the point you wish to make is that since it's theoretically possible for some extremely good groups to do it, it's alright to use that as a standard to standard raid groups).

In case it's still not clear for you, I really wasn't asking for anyone to try to find a group that has done it, just to consider what it would demand from different party members.

[Kabooa]

Stuff

Interesting tangent. I wasn't looking in my quick-edit box to the original reply on your post. I didn't see the edit-string that came with it. Apparently it loads the current post, not the one your page displays, when you hit reply. Awkward.

On point: Context included, no, I don't believe that. I didn't state any of this as an opinion, which is why I used statistical data.

My opinion on the matter is that if you're at a 0 on anything but deaths in a Savage encounter, you're doing it wrong.