Dear Tanks and DPS

[Transient_Shadow]

Thank you!

[shape]

To be honest outside of extreme and savage content I don't really care if the healer aids with dps or not. Worst case scenario I may have to pull one pack less during chain pulls in DF, Id still be pulling 2 packs minimum so who cares.

Tanks are not pushed to stance dance especially in DF, but that does not mean we shouldn't, if the healer wants to only heal us tanks can just go out of tank stance sooner. Its kind of disgusting tanks can stay in tank stance the whole run and receive no grief.


From the man himself;
Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

The only reason healers are expected to also do dmg for the types of content yoshida mentions is to speed up the kill time.
Will this stupid debate, ever do or don't ever end... Probably not in my lifetime.

[Sebazy]

....

And you've got personal experience to back this up right? (Spoiler: I suspect you don't) =(

If I remember correctly, that quote was a response to the salt that was being thrown around over Gordias' DPS checks. It was also patently wrong once you factored in the cheese strat required to actually kill A4S.

Blindly spouting Yoshida quotes from 2 years ago that have no bearing on content today is just another way to perpetuate this stupid discussion tbh.

I can tell you first hand from my own experience that there are many occasions during raid progression in this game where healer DPS is required to beat enrage or push an important mechanic. This is just how it is.

[Fernosaur]

I'd say most average groups wouldn't be able to beat Ov3S without at the very least 2k combined DPS coming in from the healers. And this isn't talking about early prog. Like, right now, 1 month away from 4.1.

[shape]

Actually I do have 1st hand experience. Stormsblood endgame content is easier than Heavensward.The 1st 4 Alexander bosses where the only time healers where required to dps to even meet these req. if your relying on your healers dps to meet the kill req then your doing something wrong in the dps area, tanks included. The 1st 4 bosses of alexander kill req where set to high, the devs admitted this when they fixed this problem.
On occasions I have had to go healer in Heavensward, which again was tuned at a higher difficulty. After analyzing statistics on FF logs, we could have still killed the content without any healer dps . most of the focus was on the tanks damage output, especially warriors. But the healers dps was still expected, why just clear content, always trying to improve the groups output is what raiding is, at least for me.

That said you must not have got my stance on this old old debate. Yes healers should do dps in any endgame content, faster kills are faster kills and this only has beneficial effects on the groups mentality.
Will I rage at healers outside of this content for not doing damage... no its a waste of time, I can just accept the situation and push out more dps on my end.

This debate should be turned into one mega thread, combining all roles. All Roles should be trying to achieve the best possible output.

FYI thank god my original post is on the same page I cant stand people who snip parts of a post to make a it look bad.
Have a nice day

[Taika]

Actually I do and Stormsblood content is easier than Heavensward, if your relying on your healers dps to meet the kill req then your doing something wrong in the dps area, tanks included.

Show me a group that can kill OS4 without healer DPS right now.

Edit: If you can't, find a group that is killing OS3 without any healer DPS right now (if there are any). If you can, compare the rankings and activity % of their DDs and tanks to those of the healers (take overheal % into consideration as well). Ask yourself, how is the work and responsibility been distributed in this group. What are the expectations towards the DDs and tanks, and how do they compare to the healers? Does it seem fair? Could you meet those expectations as a tank or a DD? After answering those questions (to yourself), read your previous post again.

[Kabooa]

Show me a group that can kill OS4 without healer DPS right now.

Edit: If you can't, find a group that is killing OS3 without any healer DPS right now (if there are any). If you can, compare the rankings and activity % of their DDs and tanks to those of the healers (take overheal % into consideration as well). Ask yourself, how is the work and responsibility been distributed in this group. What are the expectations towards the DDs and tanks, and how do they compare to the healers? Does it seem fair? After answering those questions (to yourself), read your previous post again.

Information available states Neo Exdeath enrages at 12:45.
The fastest team has cleared it in 9:35

The healers gave approximately 15% of the damage in this fight.
Removing this from consideration means that the fight would take 20% longer of 575 seconds, or about 115 seconds, clocking the final kill in around 11 minutes 30 seconds, or still ahead of the enrage by 1 minute, 15 seconds.

Not quite what you asked, but they are more than capable of doing so (Not that they would)

Moving further down the page shows Healer contribution being around 10% in kills that happen around 11 minutes. This means a fight would take 11% longer (or 66 seconds) for a final tally at 12:06, 39 seconds ahead of the enrage if they were not.

This trend seems to continue until we reach those who are very close to the enrage time.

Edit: Math was a little wrong in one part

[Taika]

Information available states Neo Exdeath enrages at 12:45. The fastest team has cleared it in 9:35...

Yeah, and now move to my actual point about what kind of performance this requires from your DDs and tanks compared to your healers?

Edit: In case it wasn't clear, my point is that if you don't happen to play with some of the best tanks and DDs in the whole wide world, you will need healer DPS to be able to clear this. If you do happen to play with the best tanks and DDs in the whole wide world, they probably aren't that willing to carry you through, and you'll still need to DPS (unless you solo heal, maybe). If you're playing with average, or even somewhat above average tanks and DDs (let's say 75% in logs), you will have to DPS as a healer, now and for some time after (and not only in OS4 but probably in OS3 too, and we're already 2 months from their release).

In other words, it is ridiculously misleading to claim that healers, right now, shouldn't have to DPS to clear this content, and it places some very unrealistic expectations to tanks and DDs (while removing most responsibility from the healers).

Edit 2: I did check this for OS4 mid-August:

For example, since OS4 apparently requires 24k party DPS, if your tanks do 6K combined and LBs do 700, it leaves 17,3K DPS for your DDs alone. That is 4325 DPS for each DD.

A PLD doing 3k DPS would currently rank 87%, a WAR 97%, and a DRK 92%. So your tanks would have to be in the top 3-13% of all the players for that job in the whole world.

For DDs, 4325 DPS would mean 98% for BRD, 97% for MCH, 95% for NIN, 94% for RDM, 93% for DRG, 77% for BLM and 75% for SMN. So for any of these jobs, they would have to be in up to the top 2% in their job. Of all the players in the world. (It would only require 56% for MNK and 31% for SAM though! )

Now tell me with a straight face that it's completely fine to expect that kind of performance level from your DDs and tanks (particularly if you don't happen to have PLD, MNK or SAM in your raid team), to literally expect them to be some of the very best players in the whole world, all 6 of your other party members, while you and your healing partner would take no responsibility whatsoever for DPS. Please tell me how it would be a reasonable expectation for the tanks and DDs and if they wouldn't somehow happen to succeed to be the world's best and wanted their healers to contibute, they would be "shifting the blame".

I would also like to add, that when I say that they will have to be, for example, "in top 3% for their job in the whole world", that actually means from the people who are able to clear the content in the first place, so they'll actually have to be much better than "only" top 3%. And also, that many of the highest rankings are runs where the players are fed all the buffs and the party setup is organised for their benefit, so those really aren't numbers that are easily (if at all) attainable on standard runs.

[Kabooa]

Yeah, and now move to my actual point about what kind of performance this requires from your DDs and tanks compared to your healers?

Ranges from 40-90% percentiles if we exclude the literal very best team.

Checking individual scores shows the range closer to 70-80%, but 90% is fairly common as well while 40-50% shows up, but not as common..

You asked a question, I answered it. That's all. This isn't the time or the place to have a giant discussion on the subtleties of percentiles, or how there's a natural growth in character power due to the gear curve separate from a player's capability.

You asked if there are teams capable of this. There are. And as gear improves, the teams capable of it expand well beyond team number 1.

[Sebazy]

....

Is this a recent fad to get offended by people chopping down a quote to keep the forum readable? I didn't mean to offend by it tho and I'll edit my post accordingly.

Back on track, I'm guessing this is an alt then? You don't appear to have killed much if anything at all which surprised me since you've linked your lodestone and your logs.

Genuinely curious tho, you've worked/been working on Omega I assume? How far have you progressed and how recently did you hit O3S/O4S?

I ask because whilst O1S's enrage timer is comically generous and O2S basically just needed a reasonably clean run (aka don't wipe the party with the Unstable Gravity mechanic) from the first week, both O3S and O4S are quite a bit harder in terms of the raw numbers required. The long and short of it was that even a top progression group couldn't hit the DPS required to kill these turns initially, O3S needed a month or so whereas O4S appears to be hitting that mark about now.

Remember that that quote was regarding Gordias itself. If I remember rightly, the only mistake the devs owned up to was in their testing and balancing procedures (Aka the deal of testing phase by phase rather than as a continuous encounter). Beyond that, they simply changed their approach to raid design for the following two tiers. I can't help but wonder if Yoshida views Midas as as big a failure as Gordias was. Creator signalled a very big change of direction in raid design and balancing and that approach has carried through to Omega.