Just another thread asking for in-game parsing for ps4 users

[Bourne_Endeavor]

But dont think they'll just remove you quietly. People will make damn sure, and in great detail, that you know how much you "suck", and should quit playing.

Here's a thought. How about GMs do their job and suspend or ban these types of people? You cannot blame parses for WoW's apparent incompetent management. Regardlesss, you don't see that same attitude in FFXIV, and I can assure you someone will have ACT up for EX and Savage content. What happens instead if people silently kick or disband without specifically mentioning numbers. It's hardly unreasonable they don't want to carry players who aren't pulling their weight.

I'm trying to explain to you that individual player improvement should be prioritized or the ultimate goal of a parse, if you immediately start to analyze for the problem or "weakest link" among "group DPS" you are falling into the antiparser communities trap. You should strive for individual player improvement at their own discretion and a toggleable, realtime, dps parser is the best way to go about it. Again we disagree but its whatever at this point.

While I do not disagree with the overall sentiment of prioritizing self improvement. It's, once again, not unreasonable to think there might be an issue when I'll nearly pull 5k on Samurai and a Monk can't break 3k. That tells me immediately something is quite wrong. Now I won't scream at them but I would wanting to link them a guide of some sort because that shouldn't be happening in Savage. Should I stay silent though and just do double the work to make up for their poor performance? I suppose so...

[Mycow8me]

Here's a thought. How about GMs do their job and suspend or ban these types of people? You cannot blame parses for WoW's apparent incompetent management. Regardlesss, you don't see that same attitude in FFXIV, and I can assure you someone will have ACT up for EX and Savage content. What happens instead if people silently kick or disband without specifically mentioning numbers. It's hardly unreasonable they don't want to carry players who aren't pulling their weight.



While I do not disagree with the overall sentiment of prioritizing self improvement. It's, once again, not unreasonable to think there might be an issue when I'll nearly pull 5k on Samurai and a Monk can't break 3k. That tells me immediately something is quite wrong. Now I won't scream at them but I would wanting to link them a guide of some sort because that shouldn't be happening in Savage. Should I stay silent though and just do double the work to make up for their poor performance? I suppose so...

If you don't want to be silent... don't. I just take the passive stance on it and would prefer they had the tools for self improvement beforehand. Assume that every player wants to improve and is willing to use those tools and if not, theres still nothing gained nothing lost. At least at that point you know they are not interested or don't care. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum, tell them their number after the fight, tell them they have a problem. Tell them how to improve, by all means go alongside them for a few days and teach them. See how many you will get willing to go through that process or not lash out at you that aren't friends. How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave. Maybe after using a personal parser they still have a problem, maybe beforehand they hated the idea of parsers but this personal parser gave them some insight into the process. Maybe the next time they won't lash out, maybe they would be more caring of where they stand. You all want instant acceptance but wont even give an inch.

Should I pretend that a personal parser isn't going to help that mnk become better in the first place? I suppose so...

Why is the answer always to link someone to a guide anyway? FFS not everyone wants to read a wall of text or is even capable of getting better in this way. Some are capable of getting better on their own. PS4 players don't have any tools to do so. Plain and simple, hell they don't even know what their dps is and here we are arguing over personal parse for improvement purposes vs group parse to find people with problems to later help them improve by throwing a novel in their face. I half think the parsing community is actually responsible for the toxic attitudes they receive because the way you perceive these tools is utterly different from just wishing players had utilities at their disposal for getting better.

Well I finished my novel I guess. I'm leaving this topic for better or worse.

[Taika]

How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave.

What exactly are you basing this on? I only have my own experience, but at least in the parties me and my friends are doing for learning and practicing extreme or Savage content (have been running Savage learning / first clear parties for 3 weeks in a row now for the floors we have on farm, taking newbies with us), we don't care about anyone's DPS before the group has met enrage several times. At that point, if someone is underperforming enough that they're personally preventing the group from winning, the situation will be discussed. If it turns out the person can't improve enough to be able to clear at that point, they will of course get replaced (so that everyone else wouldn't miss their clear just because of 1 person), but it's done in a friendly manner (they are encouraged to get some more practice and then they can clear for sure).

I have been running with someone parsing in a group since at least 2.0 (I don't remember if there were parsers in 1.0) and people have always offered advice first and given people a chance to improve, and only replacing the person if the person is really holding the group back and is unable to do the content at that time. And I definitely don't see anything wrong with that either.

(Now it's a different situation if a person is joining for example farm groups that only allow people who actually have the fight on farm. In that case, if there's a person who is significantly underperforming (as in if everyone would play at the same level they would never beat the fight), they may just be kicked instead of offered advice, since they intentionally joined a group and weren't able to offer what was required.)

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

[Lazaruz]

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

The parsers are there, yes, but it's not a official software developed or endorsed by SE, so the stance of "Dont get caught harassing people with it, and we'll look the other way", becomes alot easier, since you're not "supposed" to have it to begin with.

I love how the "pro-parser" community though seem to have this idea that a official parser wont immensely complicate the harassment reports though, because you're talking about a official software, and it's quite easy to make the case of it being there and official means A) SE wants you to use it, and B) Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

I have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal". Because god knows if you enjoy min-maxing yourself to hell and back, you apparently have the right to impose it on every single person you come across.

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

You're getting pretty hostile here over opinions yeah?.....If you want to be a spokesperson for not getting hostile you might want to not end up hostile yourself.

Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

And if you honestly think this is me mad, or hostile, I can honestly say you've neither met, or spoken with me, when I'm actually either of those two.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

[Taika]

Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

How would they become more blurry? Right now you can say "You're performing really badly!" and that's not considered harassment. Then you could say "You're performing really badly: your DPS is only 2500 when it should be 4000!". And again, if you add any personal insults or bad language to those, they'll turn into harassment, despite if numbers have been used or not. The main difference in my eyes is that when the numbers are used, the person receiving the critisism will know if it's based on facts or not.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

They are different arguments. I have personally witnessed parsers being used for good in this game for many years, and I have not yet witnessed a single case of parser-related harassment despite running endgame in this game from 1.0. On the other side, what I see this thread is people speculating about the possibilities of there being parser-related harassment that would somehow appear out of nothing when the official parser would be added. I have not seen this argument being based on even personal experiences from this game (I may have missed a post, of course). Furthermore, the people most fervently arguing against parsers don't even seem to be doing any content in which they are relevant, so the discussion doesn't really even concern them in the first place.

SI have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal".

How exactly is this different from all the current "high DPS or kick" party finders? Do you think that those people are right now just eyeballing if their party members are pulling enough or not? Furthermore, what exactly would be the issues with these party finders? Players are free to form whatever type of groups they like, and we all have the freedom to choose to either join them or not to join them. I don't join "high DPS or kick" or "one mistake and kick" groups now, and I would not join "4k DPS or kick" groups then, even if I would meet the requirements. And I would not suddenly change the requirements for my own party finders (which are currently something in lines of "be comfortable with the fight and your job and bring patience and good attitude") just because the parsers people are already using would be made visible.

[Miste]

ignorant of the opposing view

Not ignorant. They just might be pointing out the holes in the argument you are using because of the fact you cannot possibly know the outcome if SE added an official parser; last time I checked humans cannot foresee the future like in myths and legends.

If they did add one probationary, to test it, and suddenly the game had way more rude people than now, specifically using the official parser to harass, then you could claim you were right, but...how can you claim it yet? It hasn't happened.

labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

There are people who are anti-parser that actually do demonize anyone who uses one even if said person never uses it beyond their personal use and never harasses anyone. I mean you have someone in this thread alone who basically reports anyone they 'think' is using one; harassment or not. So you might not be realizing that some people may be defending themselves on this point and not actually claiming that no one is guilty of toxic behavior.

The real question is would that toxic behavior still exist even if the parser didn't?

A parser is just 1's and 0's in a computer, that doesn't turn someone into a jerk all on its own. So toxic behavior is present even without a parser (all of the toxic behavior I've seen while playing this game was nothing to do with parsers and I've been playing for 4 years for example).

The problem is those rude people you may have come across, do you think if they had no parser at all they would somehow not be jerks? We don't know and that's the problem with doing all this guesswork. If a player is a rude player then without a parser they may just find anything else they can find to harass someone with.

Harassment in any form is against ToS so it really isn't any different than now. An official parser does not mean "you have permission to harass".

I posted this in another thread and it basically explains the problem with the argument of "if you add an official parser people will harass more with it".

The only thing I can say is human beings aren't fortune tellers. We can't say one way or the other if the game would turn out worse, better, or end up exactly the same as now with an official parser. We simply do not know unless they add one so doing guesswork or pretending we know how people will behave is pointless.

Before people say "...but WoW...".

Comparing this community to other MMO communities is also pointless because this community is not the same as other ones and vice versa so you cannot use another game to predict behavior in this one unless you did a very comprehensive study on the types of people playing both games, but no one has the resources or time to do such a study. The most we can do is "an educated guess" which is still nowhere near a conclusion based on fact.

[HyoMinPark]

The parsers are there, yes, but it's not a official software developed or endorsed by SE, so the stance of "Dont get caught harassing people with it, and we'll look the other way", becomes alot easier, since you're not "supposed" to have it to begin with.

I love how the "pro-parser" community though seem to have this idea that a official parser wont immensely complicate the harassment reports though, because you're talking about a official software, and it's quite easy to make the case of it being there and official means A) SE wants you to use it, and B) Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

I feel like Miste summed this up quite nicely, but I would like to reiterate: are you clairvoyant? Can you see into/predict the future? How do you know that reports wouldn't be just as they are now? The argument many "pro-parsers" make in this thread is that, if SE developed and implemented an in-game, official parser, reports on blatant harassment (whether they involved said parser or not) would still be taken seriously and investigated. You make it sound almost as if this would not be the case if a parser was introduced and implemented.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

And yet, no where in this thread have those that are "anti-parsers" have shared any of their own negative experiences with regards to parsing. Instead, they tend to just paint all "pro-parsers" with the same brush, insinuating that "well, that one guy I met who parsed was a jerk, therefore, all people who parse are jerks.". They don't add anything constructive to the argument of why they're against parsers other than gross misconceptions, generalizations, and just, in general, negative attitudes. No one in this thread who is "pro-parser" said that all people who parse are saints, and that the bad apples are a lie. Everyone one who is for parsers has recognized and noted that these jerks exist. But, rather than allow one or two players to paint the picture of the entire pro-parser community, instead we ask for those who are so hellbent that all people who parse or who want to parse be banned indefinitely, to be a little bit more open-minded, and stop painting us all with the same brush.

I'm sure that you probably don't like people making negative generalizations or assumptions about you. Perhaps you should try to empathize with those of us who don't appreciate being called jerks just because John Doe from Jerkland decided to harass Mary on her supposedly subpar DPS.

Again, Miste summed this up quite nicely: the "toxic" behavior is already present, with or without a parser. Those inclined to be jerks will continue to be jerks without a parser, or with one. My experience, most people that were jerks in this game never brought DPS or parsing into the picture. They were just being jerks for the sake of being jerks (an example: when Weeping City was new, and people kept pulling Ozma while the alliance was trying to explain mechanics to the plethora of new people in the raid because "I don't have time to wait for silly things like helping other people with new fights and new fight mechanics"; parsers and DPS output was never mentioned here).

I have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal". Because god knows if you enjoy min-maxing yourself to hell and back, you apparently have the right to impose it on every single person you come across.

These already exist. So, your point in bringing them up is...?

Again, no one is saying everyone will suddenly become Mother Theresa in this game if an official parser is introduced. Stop making false inferences.

I enjoy min-maxing myself, but I have many friends that are fine just playing super casually--they don't care about BiS, they don't care about Savage, they don't care about DPS, they don't even care about current or past Ex primals. Do I force my min-maxing playstyle on them? No. Do I force it on randoms? No. I do, however, encourage people to look into ways for self-improvement, no matter what job they play, because what's wrong with wanting to improve? However, if someone is fine being "just average" or "just as they are," well, then that's their choice. I don't agree with it, I don't understand it, but I don't harass or shame people about it.

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

Uh, okay? Pot calling the kettle black here, by the way, with that last sentence of yours. You seem pretty ignorant of the "pro-parser" side of things yourself.

Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

Actually, the majority of this thread is more like: "Parsers are bad! I may or may not have had a bad experience with them, therefore everyone who parses are bad people, and deserve to be reported and permanently banned from this game! I don't care if they use parsers for good/guides/theorycrafting/self-improvement! They are all bad!" You literally have one person who goes around reporting players based on "a hunch" that they may be "checking numbers," and who is advocating that people be banned because they stream their raids on Twitch or wherever and you see ACT in the corner. I fail to see how you missed that several-page argument.

The people arguing in this thread are, again, arguing against these select "anti-parser" posters to stop painting "pro-parsers" with the same brush.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

Umm. Okay?

[Taika]

You dont see it for the explicit reason of SE both can and will crack down on people getting hostile over people underperforming. A quiet removal is not hostility, but neither is that what I'm talking about either. I'm specificly talking about the people who you know damn well will go out of their way to yell and critique other peoples performance if given permission.

But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

[Lazaruz]

But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

Neither did I say it did. So thanks for putting words in my mouth