Why no Plex system?

[Aldora]

This subject has been discussed several times in the past and every single one of them became quite heated at that. The main issue people have with this is the mindset behind it.

One person says that that people will be able to buy game time with an in-game currency, so that they don't have to pay the subscription fee due to real life financial issues. Another person says that (s)he has so much in-game money, that they save spend it on buying game time through the market boards and save money. And finally another person says it's to battle RMT, by "legalizing" it through a token system like "Chronosphere/Plex/WoWTokens/etc".

But, why are we in this situation to begin with? Because players buy in-game currencies by spending real money through RMT. As long as there are people buying in-game currency with real money, there will always be RMT around the corner who will make full use of that opportunity. But, “legalizing” it is not the way to go.

RMT is a bannable offence and thus has to be punished. You buy gil? You suffer the consequence. Period.

The only wish i have is that SE hunts them down faster. Have a GM stand in each zone of the game and the second they see an RMT shout or receives one through tell, let the ban hammer fly. They can even suspend them until the internal investigation of their illicit activities/RMT Advertising has concluded.

RMT should not be tolerated and addressed with a firm hand. Not be “challenged” by introducing your own “Legal RMT”.

But, make no mistake. I’m all for the opportunity to gift game time to friends or family, but not like this. If you want to gift game time, either buy a game time card for them, or have the ability to purchase game time through the Mog station, which then can be sent directly to the SE account of person you want it to be sent. The person would then receive either a real life e-mail saying that their game time has been extended for the amount which has been paid for, or the person would receive an untradeable and unsellable item in the Moogle Mail box which will extend their game time upon use.

Game time should never be sold through in-game currency and the reason why is basically due to the question: “How much in-game currency do you think is game time worth?” Depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer every time.

Even if SE sets a fixed price for the tokens on the Market boards, if we take the housing system into account, how many people would actually be able to afford these tokens? There’s a very big disparity between players when it comes to their virtual income. Top tier crafters tend to have a heck of a lot more Gil than someone who only runs battle content on a casual level. So, why would only a “select group of players” be able to purchase game time through in-game currencies?

And if we turn this question around, if someone wants to get more Gil (to buy an in-game house or crafted raiding gear), they would be able to buy a Token and sell it on the Market boards. However, there are plenty of crafters who work for the Gil they earned. How would that be considered "fair" for the amount of time and effort the crafter has put into the game?

Even though the money is only moving around, the financial disparity between players will only increase over time.

This particular topic will always have 2 camps sitting at polar opposites of each other, who will never be able to agree with each other. I personally, am sitting at the camp that gives a firm “No” to a system that allows people buy game tokens which real money, which they can sell on the Market Boards for in-game currency. As well as allowing people to buy game-time with an in-game currency only.

They only way i would agree with such a token system is when:

• You can use it to buy Game Time for yourself through the MogStation, without needing to subscribe to the game. There are people who are having difficulties subscribing to this game, because their transaction keep getting denied their banks and they are forced to pay with “Crysta”. Or when people only want to play for 1 single month, without the hassle of starting and canceling a subscription. Make buying Game Time / Subscriptions easier for them.
• You can use it to gift Game Time to friends and family through the MogStation. The person would then receive either a real life e-mail saying that their game time has been extended for the amount which has been paid for, or the person would receive an untradeable and unsellable item in the Moogle Mail box which will extend their game time upon use.

That’s all i have to say about this topic.

[Vexander]

And if we turn this question around, if someone wants to get more Gil (to buy an in-game house or crafted raiding gear), they would be able to buy a Token and sell it on the Market boards. However, there are plenty of crafters who work for the Gil they earned. How would that be considered "fair" for the amount of time and effort the crafter has put into the game?

Because the Crafter could buy game time with that hard earned gil, and thus not have to expend their Real Life currency? I mean, honestly, in a way I feel like a Plex system would probably benefit a lot of the players who are in the regions about to be affected by the subscription price normalization. Brazil and the likes. A Plex system would at least give them the opportunity to continue playing if they could earn enough Gil to buy tokens.

[AthenaSinclaire]

RMT should not be tolerated and addressed with a firm hand. Not be “challenged” by introducing your own “Legal RMT”.

It actually is, though.

And introducing your own "legal" RMT is the only tactic that has proven to work time and time again with plenty of other MMOs (EVE, WoW, Wildstar, etc.)

You can ban billions of RMT accounts and it won't change anything. RMT accounts are paid for with stolen credit card numbers.

The ONLY WAY to stop RMT is to sate the demand for it yourself.

Believe me when I say that MMO developers have been fighting RMT for decades and they all came to the same conclusion: Plex is the only thing that works.

[Aldora]

Because the Crafter could buy game time with that hard earned gil, and thus not have to expend their Real Life currency?

That question was part of something else, which you've left out of your quote. What i said was:

Game time should never be sold through in-game currency and the reason why is basically due to the question: “How much in-game currency do you think is game time worth?” Depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer every time.

Even if SE sets a fixed price for the tokens on the Market boards, if we take the housing system into account, how many people would actually be able to afford these tokens? There’s a very big disparity between players when it comes to their virtual income. Top tier crafters tend to have a heck of a lot more Gil than someone who only runs battle content on a casual level. So, why would only a “select group of players” be able to purchase game time through in-game currencies?

And if we turn this question around, if someone wants to get more Gil (to buy an in-game house or crafted raiding gear), they would be able to buy a Token and sell it on the Market boards. However, there are plenty of crafters who work for the Gil they earned. How would that be considered "fair" for the amount of time and effort the crafter has put into the game?

It's not just about being able to buy it. It's about the means in regards to getting the Gil, compared to the players who actually worked for it and earned the gil they have gathered up. You can have a player wanting to buy a house (assuming that there are any plots), but he doesn't have enough gil in order to buy it. With this system, he could buy a Game Token and sell it through the Market boards, in order to collect the amount of gil needed to buy that house.

That literally costs no effort what so ever from the player, just a deeper pocket. On the other side, you have players who actually play the game, craft / gather items and sell those on the Market boards in order to collect that same amount of gil. Those players put effort into getting the gil needed to buy the house. That's the issue some of us are talking about here.

Then there is the matter of buying Game Time through an in-game currency. Like Richard said himself, someone has to buy the Token, so SE will still get their money (and maybe more). Even though that is true, who in his or her right mind will by Tokens aside from paying for their own use or gifting it to a friend/relative? The only reason i can think of, is to sell it for gil and that's exactly the wrong reason to do it for.

You can save up that money to buy something that actually matters in real life. Which brings me to this comment right here:

The ONLY WAY to stop RMT is to sate the demand for it yourself.

If you actually believe this, then that's your given right. But, that's the worst possible thing you can do. You're basically giving in to people who are greedy and want to get Gil by throwing real money at it.

I mean, think about it. We are living in an era where a lot of people want to get “stuff” for free, while throwing money at other things without a sliver of thought. For example, we want to play a MMO for free, but on the other hand, we’re not hesitating when it comes to spending a fortune on vanity items in cash shops.

The main reason behind it is the desire that you just have to have it. But, wouldn’t you agree that there is something very wrong with that picture?

Like i said before:

RMT is a bannable offence and thus has to be punished. You buy gil? You suffer the consequence. Period.

You were only talking about banning the RMT account, but i was mostly talking about the players who are buying. If you as a player buy gil through RMT means, then you should be punished just as severely as the people who are selling it. Both parties are partaking in an illicit activity.

You can only really stop RMT if no one is buying from them. If they can't sell their goods in a game, they will leave eventually. What you are suggesting is to have these kinds of players the means to still pursue the same activities, but through means supplied by SE. That doesn't fix the root of the problem, namely that people are buying gil with real money. That is the real issue here.

People are saying that we are living in a regression, that everything is expensive, but on the other hand we're buying a luxury item like the latest iPhone for more then 800 bucks because it's the "thing to have"? Then we have people saying that they'd want to be able to buy game time with an in-game currency, so that they can save money on a game with a 15 dollar a month subscription?

What is wrong with this picture here?

I mean, honestly, in a way I feel like a Plex system would probably benefit a lot of the players who are in the regions about to be affected by the subscription price normalization. Brazil and the likes. A Plex system would at least give them the opportunity to continue playing if they could earn enough Gil to buy tokens.

I'm truly sorry (and i'm sure i'm going to get flamed by this), but when people are talking about the regions who are affected by the subscription price normalization, i think of the following article:

The reason for this increase was to ensure that no matter where someone plays from, what currency they use, or which platform they play on, the price would remain roughly the same for everyone. Before this change, the price for Brazilian and Russian Steam platform users was lower than what other users, even those in Brazil and Russia, were paying when not using the Steam platform. After the change, everyone was paying roughly the same price.

We will temporarily revert the recent price adjustments in the upcoming Mog Station maintenance planned for August 16, 2017. These reduced prices will be in place for approximately 60 days. After that, prices will return to the levels they are at today.

This extension of the reduced prices and when they are ending will allow Brazilian and Russian Steam platform users to prepare for the price change. We will also be adding 30 days of game time to the accounts of Brazilian and Russian Steam platform users who were impacted by the subscription price changes.

Source: Regarding Price Changes for Brazilian & Russian Steam Users

I'm going to be very harsh here, but i believe that everyone should be paying roughly the same amount for a subscription (taking inflation and currency conversion into account). If this price change would mean that you aren't able to pay for the subscription fee, then i believe that you should think about other things then playing a Subscription MMO.

If you really want to play games, there are plenty of alternatives out there that are either free (regular single-player or multi-player) games or "Free-to-play" MMO's (where i also include GuildWars 2 and WildStar into). A token system like this doesn't not belong in a Subscription MMO, not even for cases like this.

However, like i said earlier:

But, make no mistake. I’m all for the opportunity to gift game time to friends or family, but not like this. If you want to gift game time, either buy a game time card for them, or have the ability to purchase game time through the Mog station, which then can be sent directly to the SE account of person you want it to be sent. The person would then receive either a real life e-mail saying that their game time has been extended for the amount which has been paid for, or the person would receive an untradeable and unsellable item in the Moogle Mail box which will extend their game time upon use.

This on the other hand, should not be a substitute for people who are unable to pay for the subscription.

If i was being confronted with a massive increase in subscription fees, i would seriously rethink if i want to continue my subscription for this game. I love the game with every fiber of my being, but i cannot justify paying a 30 dollar (slight exaggeration) subscription fee for it.

I stand by what i wrote above and you can take it anyway you like. I want people to be able to play this game and love it as much as i do. But, i will never agree to a system suggested here.

[Shihen]

Few things here.

You can have a player wanting to buy a house (assuming that there are any plots), but he doesn't have enough gil in order to buy it. With this system, he could buy a Game Token and sell it through the Market boards, in order to collect the amount of gil needed to buy that house.

That literally costs no effort what so ever from the player, just a deeper pocket.

Those pockets don't get deeper by themselves. The effort cost is there, it just doesn't take place in FFXIV.

someone has to buy the Token, so SE will still get their money (and maybe more). Even though that is true, who in his or her right mind will by Tokens aside from paying for their own use or gifting it to a friend/relative? The only reason i can think of, is to sell it for gil and that's exactly the wrong reason to do it for.

You can save up that money to buy something that actually matters in real life.

For a lot of people, getting the most out of this game does matter in real life. It's a connection to people you never would have met otherwise, and experiences you never would have had otherwise. Enjoying it matters.

You're basically giving in to people who are greedy and want to get Gil by throwing real money at it.

The main reason behind it is the desire that you just have to have it. But, wouldn’t you agree that there is something very wrong with that picture?

What about the guy working 9-5 with kids, a wife, and 2-3 hours of gametime a day? Greedy probably isn't the best word for him. And the girl trying to balance a few courses, studying, and working part time probably just wants to get the most out of a hobby she enjoys.

Some people love the game just as much as anyone else, they just don't have the time to invest in it. I don't want to see an unrestricted money to gil conversion system, but I think a capped form of conversion should exist. Marketable game tokens with a monthly cap on how many you can buy, for example. Enough to equate to a crafter that spends a few hours a week on the market, and far less than the hardcore crafters that do nothing but.

You can only really stop RMT if no one is buying from them.

Agreed.

What you are suggesting is to have these kinds of players the means to still pursue the same activities, but through means supplied by SE. That doesn't fix the root of the problem, namely that people are buying gil with real money.

Lost me a bit on this one. If you're an RMT company and you buy a 15 dollars worth of gil via token from SE, what are you going to do with it? Sell it for 16? No one will buy it when they can just get it from SE at 15, and selling it at anything less is a loss.

With a monthly cap on tokens in place, RMT will still exist but their profits will take a massive hit. Less money means bans are more effective as replacing lost accounts is now more costly, and the end result is a better experience for all legitimate players.

Edit: Actually, I see your point here. If players buying gil for real money is a problem, it doesn't change anything. I'd just argue that allowing players to buy gil for real money in moderation via game time tokens does more good than harm.

People are saying that we are living in a regression, that everything is expensive, but on the other hand we're buying a luxury item like the latest iPhone for more then 800 bucks because it's the "thing to have"? Then we have people saying that they'd want to be able to buy game time with an in-game currency, so that they can save money on a game with a 15 dollar a month subscription?

What is wrong with this picture here?

It's not because they have trouble affording a 15 dollar subscription. There just aren't many gil sinks in the game and they have far more than they need. If they can save money by giving what they don't need to someone who does need it, then all the better. It's not really any deeper than that.

I want people to be able to play this game and love it as much as i do.

This is a sentiment we share. I just think there should be a way for people with less time on their hands than others to get a limited push forward. If it also pushes RMT closer to the garbage bin where it belongs, even better.

[Krotoan]

Those pockets don't get deeper by themselves. The effort cost is there, it just doesn't take place in FFXIV.

This is the part I don't believe most understand. I think a lot of the opposition thinks some people just magically have more money.
I has a job, I work a lot. I play FFXIV to relax, not to put in another 40 hours a week farming for stuff. My time is worth significantly more than 15 extra dollars a week.. or even 100. Giving your players the option to trade money for removing tedium is smart.
In the end we are all spending TIME. How you spend it is entirely up to you though.

[frostmagemari]

This is the part I don't believe most understand. I think a lot of the opposition thinks some people just magically have more money.
I has a job, I work a lot. I play FFXIV to relax, not to put in another 40 hours a week farming for stuff. My time is worth significantly more than 15 extra dollars a week.. or even 100. Giving your players the option to trade money for removing tedium is smart.
In the end we are all spending TIME. How you spend it is entirely up to you though.

I don't know why people seem to think that the gil would just appear from no where... but people seem to.

I really don't see the adverse effects people are being all apocalyptic about either. Having the game-time tokens sellable on the marketplace wouldn't cause inflation, if anything, it'd do a good bit of evening out the disparity in gil. People who have tons of gil are able to spend it on tokens that will usually be sold by those who have more RL money than they do time to make in-game gil. You'll rarely find the person with 100million gil selling the tokens, but you'll definitely see him buying them and spreading the gil in the system around more.
All the while, you give people less and less reason to buy from gil sellers; people who actively bring more gil into the system more than any individual player via their farming methods.
Left untouched, this game's economy will become near the situation that XI found itself in, and i'd rather not have to pay those prices again.

[Snow_Princess]

This is the part I don't believe most understand. I think a lot of the opposition thinks some people just magically have more money.
I has a job, I work a lot. I play FFXIV to relax, not to put in another 40 hours a week farming for stuff. My time is worth significantly more than 15 extra dollars a week.. or even100. Giving your players the option to trade money for removing tedium is smart.
In the end we are all spending TIME. How you spend it is entirely up to you though.

I get that, I really do, my opposition has nothing to do with impeed's someone enjoyment of the game because they make more money in RL. That is fine and something that should be considered when making extra stuff in the mog station and what prices to set for all the extra stuff.

I am opposed to it because the game's econ can't support it, it is the worst econ system I seen. First off the rich simply horde gil because there is nothing to do with it, they have the power to buy 10+ large if they could, some people have cap gil (999~ basically a billion gil on more then one retainer.) Now picture gil like this more in circulation for many to hold what happens? The housing shortage gets even worse, more people try flip them dispite being against the tos, and it may even provoke those that do not know better to monopolize the MB. If you can do it on a huge server such as mine what about the smaller ones? If the game econ actually was active I would think different but in the current state it just cause problems.

More gil spread around = more server load problems when housing is released then what we had on 3.4. I tried logging on the second servers went up but got disconnected twice because the congestion was unreal. The only way to solve it is to have more ways to spend gil, and raise the housing prices. IF SE can't meet the demands of housing, they need to increase the price and have the price balance things. People complained about 70 ish mil for larges when housing was first released because people had 1/100th of the gil they have today. They make the prices smaller when there is an af ton more gil being horded and that doesn't make sense to me.

You are going to have people spending 400-1000+ dollars on housing if they released this, that is how much people have gil wise, and how big the shortage is. Once you move that in RL, the prices are going to get insane till it finds a balance. Trust me I seen those 1k + KC stories, do not think the same will happen with housing should such a system get released.

Despite the huge benefit I would get if this should be in place, I am still apposed to it because of all the problems it would cause. Personally I would benefit, np but the general health of the econ be exponentially worse then what we see now.

[frostmagemari]

More gil spread around = more server load problems when housing is released then what we had on 3.4. I tried logging on the second servers went up but got disconnected twice because the congestion was unreal.

You do realize that Balmung had a FAR FAR larger population than it does now? at the best days prior to SB dropping, you still had queue times of hundreds of people. Now the highest queue i've seen is 30 people during prime time.
Balmung congestion was caused by being Balmung. The server had such a heavy load on it already that anything that sparked peoples interest would bring hundreds of players online because of the allure of whatever it was. Most of those people aren't on the server anymore.. We're still full, but no where near what we were.

That being said, the game could use a lot more gil sinks, useful gil sinks; but this isn't an either/or situation. There can be multiple solutions to the problem that the game faces.. more gil sinks (one option is vendor bought untradable items are used within crafting recipes throughout end-game crafting or catch up mechanics) AND a plex system can work in tandem to spread existing gil out, reduce the likely-hood of people buying from gil sellers and then taking gil out of the system via gil sinks.

[Eclipsed]

Snip

Removal of RMT through enforcement actions in-game has proven beyond any doubt to be an unreasonable goal. There are just too many of them, they can never all be caught and punished. And they have all the motivation in the world to keep doing it as the business is incredibly profitable.