Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[BubblyBoar]

Can we like....stop the nonsense? Seriously? I can't believe this topic has gone on this long. It's like the people arguing ignore all the sensible posts that solve the whole conversation and just argue to argue. Then they wonder why people don't want parsers.

People ask for parsers claiming a few things. They claim they want to help people improve themselves, or find out the weak link that is causing them to hit enrage, or to evaluate themselves, and some, without saying it, just want to lord their numbers over others. This confuses me because all of this can be done in the game already, save the last one.

SE is pretty much running with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Let's be honest; they aren't stupid. They know most people raiding and doing semi to hardcore content run parsers. They know you are doing it. And as long as you aren't being report and outright say you are, and as long as you aren't harassing anyone, they let you do what you want. Parsers ARE against their ToS, but it's just there to prevent harassment and malicious programs. So use them all you want, SE will just ignore that you are until you give them a reason to look at you.

That said, 99% of the reasons people re asking for parsers are already things now. Want to self-improve? There's plenty of resources out there to seek. You have to issues with getting banned or anything because only you know you are running the thing. You don;t have to tell anyone or let anyone know in game because you are just improving yourself...right?

Trying to help others? They will be the same. You can point them in the direction of guides and even help them get their own. As long as it's just between you and them, it's no issue if you really trying to help them and they want it right?

So what about finding the weak link that's making you hit enrage? Nothing is stopping you from parsing the group right? You just can't say anything. So just let them know they are doing not-so-great damage. They know you are parsing, but as long as you don't actually say you are, you are safe. If they want to improve, they will improve and we'll be at point number 2. If they don't, they'll just blow you off and make excuses, in which case, just kick them or leave the group. If they ask for proof, just say "I was watching you, I just know." It's likely they are just trying to make excuses and call you out for using a parser. You not being able to show them doesn't stop you from leaving the group or kicking them. You don't have to provide actual proof to do those things.

So that just leaves the last reason people want the built in parsers, which for those that have this reason, will not admit. The people that want to lord their numbers over others. "I'm the best DPS in this group, you all suck" and such. Without a parser to show them, this doesn't really matter. It's the only reason that actually needs the parser to be used where it can't be used now. And parsers can't be used now because this is the reason that births most of the toxicity and harassment that the anti-parser said use for their side.

What does all that mean? Parsers are fine how they are now. If you if you aren't trying to force things on others, then everything is fine. If a good player wants to get better after being told they are low DPS, then they'll seek out the information, even if parsers can't be shown in-game. If a bad player is called out, even an in-game parser won't make them perform better. They'll just lie or make excuses, even with definitive proof in their face.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

What does all that mean? Parsers are fine how they are now. If you if you aren't trying to force things on others, then everything is fine. If a good player wants to get better after being told they are low DPS, then they'll seek out the information, even if parsers can't be shown in-game. If a bad player is called out, even an in-game parser won't make them perform better. They'll just lie or make excuses, even with definitive proof in their face.

Let's be real. The people who would ridicule someone in Braylox Longstop or Sastasha over their DPS alone would be an absolute minority. No one is forcing anyone to do anything by putting the feature into the game itself. I personally would like to keep track of my DPS and others DPS in-game without having to use external tools.

I'm a Tank and Healer main, due to the way this game is by design for these roles, everything you do is practically in the spotlight. If you don't heal correctly, the DPS automatically know, or the Tank knows. If the Tank doesn't keep aggro, the DPS or Healer automatically knows (I mean there's even a meter that DPS and Healers can see just to check in how good the Tank is keeping aggro).

If I fail to Esuna someone and it leads to their death, people know where to look. If I fail to tank swap at a certain moment and it leads to the other Tank's death, people know where to look.

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

If as Tank or Healer people can see my mistakes right in the open the second I make them, is it really that unreasonable we have a way to encourage and help the DPS get better so that everyone (including the DPS who may not realize it) can defeat the dungeon or raid?

[Snow_Princess]

Let's be real. The people who would ridicule someone in Braylox Longstop or Sastasha over their DPS alone would be an absolute minority. No one is forcing anyone to do anything by putting the feature into the game itself. I personally would like to keep track of my DPSand others DPS in-game without having to use external tools.

I'm a Tank and Healer main, due to the way this game is by design for these roles, everything you do is practically in the spotlight. If you don't heal correctly, the DPS automatically know, or the Tank knows. If the Tank doesn't keep aggro, the DPS or Healer automatically knows (I mean there's even a meter that DPS and Healers can see just to check in how good the Tank is keeping aggro).

If I fail to Esuna someone and it leads to their death, people know where to look. If I fail to tank swap at a certain moment and it leads to the other Tank's death, people know where to look.

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

If as Tank or Healer people can see my mistakes right in the open the second I make them, is it really that unreasonable we have a way to encourage and help the DPS get better so that everyone (including the DPS who may not realize it) can defeat the dungeon or raid?

LOL! I just got called out for impulse drive spam in Sastasha. He tried to say doing 4 CDs vorpal combo is 60 potency more, so I said that is nice, and what lives longer then 2-3 GCDs here? .. Also I did not know how 20=60 =/

My standards for DPS in dungeon is that as long as they spam AoEs when 3+ mobs in trash pulls I'm happy. (Yes my standards are really low)

Not many have aoe in Sastasha :3 but ya I get the idea, use your aoes when you are at the level to use them

1. Those threads referred to casual content / drastic indications of poor play. Most players will not know that an early Geirskogul rotation is ideal for x fight under y circumstances, etc., etc., let alone be on the look out for every oGCD sync and CD match-up.
2. What makes a game any more or less "built for a parser". If anything, XIV is built for a parser more most, in that it actually has dedicated datalogs by which to parse, rather than requiring network interception. WoW and others have this as well, but not all games that have parsers can make do with non-interceptive parsing.
3. How do you intend to improve "as a group", when you have little idea how each person is faring? If you mean this in terms of a strategy meeting over relative potency spreadsheets, then I suppose this is possible. If you're talking "huddle up, and let's talk this out so we can all have our heads in the game", you'd be actively hampering that goal by neglecting objective performance metrics, likely irritating those who are already performing maximally, and would find yourself much less able to spot the problems as they occur.

This, i am observant but not that observant. It is hard to do when you are trying to play optimally yourself, trying to spot little mistakes, i/e, spotting a 1.6k rotation vs 3.2k is easy, spotting a 4.0k vs 3.2k not so much.

This isn't an argument. I've had Monks with sub-600 DPS and a Black Mage who couldn't break 500 yet thought they were good. The standards people have various substantially, and many players confuse healer or tank damage with what the actual DPS are doing. Regardless, no one really cares what you do in a dungeon. It's faceroll content you barely require a pulse for unless the tank mass pulls. Where people start to care is endgame content. Zurvan EX exposed the staggering amount of players who can't execute a basic opener. Skipping Soar should have been a cakewalk yet I went into parties where five or even six DPS couldn't manage to skip Demon's Claw, nevermind Soar. Parses wouldn't change anything except exposing lazy players who are content with allowing others to carry them. Toxic people will be toxic with or without the tool. They simply use ACT and kick bad players without saying a word. Take a look at PF. You see all those "bad DPS will be kicked," "Replacing people after multiple wipes." They all have parses going.

An official parse would help those who want to improve see where things aren't clicking without relying on third party programs. Provided SE enforced their policies, harassment would be handled the same way it is now.

Yup, the comments to AphraelAmarantha, if we assume rdm, prob where impressed they saw no hardcasting XD

[BubblyBoar]

But here we have DPS that have no clear signs of when they are making mistakes in their play in their specific role (DPS) when simple dungeons are being failed, then fingers start being pointed at random people for that reason. One person who might be doing really great DPS will have the finger pointed at them because there's no way to check in-game to see who is causing the team to lose.

And like I said, just run a parser. It doesn't need to be in game. If they don't believe you, or ask for proof, they are just making excuses and don't want to get better. You can totally bullshit and just say you watched how they played and noticed they weren't playing as well. And if they refuse to get better, just kick them or leave the dungeon. A person like that doesn't want to get better. They already think they are great and will just make excuses. parser being in-game will only make them deny things even harder and make even more excuses. It's not going to solve anything.

Please stop acting like there are these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data nd go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll try and be a good DPS now." Because those people are already trying or already parsing.

[Shurrikhan]

Please stop acting like there are these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data nd go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll try and be a good DPS now." Because those people are already trying or already parsing.

I've run into some 20 of exactly those kinds of people. (Sadly that's about equal to how many I've seen say "how about I'll play how I like and you can deal with it" or have threatened to try to ban anyone who asked to shape up.) I've also seen people seek friends out to parse them on a dummy or over a dungeon run (surprisingly often, they're worried less about their fixed rotation than their number sense and general priorities, so to speak, which a longer run may bring more insight towards) because either they can't get theirs to work or are on PS3/4. There certainly are those players who at present are without parsers but can nonetheless make use of them. They're no huge crowd, but they're not mythical creatures.

[RichardButte]

Well, I'm definitely confused by how they insist on nearly every encounter having an enrage, yet not letting us get any indication of performance without using third party software.

This.

It's 100% contradictory.

Imagine trying to play as a healer and not being able to see the HP of your party members, instead having to guess who is injured and who isn't.

That's basically DPS as a role right now...

[Delily]

This.

It's 100% contradictory.

Imagine trying to play as a healer and not being able to see the HP of your party members, instead having to guess who is injured and who isn't.

That's basically DPS as a role right now...

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

[Kaurhz]

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

Both of which don't give any reasonable statistic. Sure it tells me if my rotation in general is correct and sufficient, but beating on a dummy, and beating on savage, and primals, whilst juggling mechanics is something entirely different, even with the over-inflated DPS check for passing the dummies.


This topic gives me like a dozen conflicting thoughts

[NintenPyjak64]

That's why we have tools like Sky and Sea and The Circles of Answering.

Go do SSS as a MNK. It's an awful way to gauge your gameplay because your "big attack" is locked behind total RNG, and Brotherhood is useless since you're solo. Looking at a raid scenario, a raid group is going to have 3-4 other people who will benefit from Brotherhood (both tanks, second melee and/or BRD/MCH), but their abilities will in turn give you more chakra, to do more Forbidden Chakras. DRG suffers from this too because of Dragon Sight, although you could give that to a chocobo, it's skewing your numbers by killing the dummy faster

If I wanted to gauge my MNK gameplay, I'll do it in actual raid content, where I can benefit more from Brotherhood and actually use high tier food/potions (why waste expensive raid consumables on a dummy?), AND have to deal with mechanics

Actually, I've heard they slow performance and increase latency, which is why it'd be nice for SE to have personal built in parsers because SE has said they HAVE DPS meters, they just don't make them available to players.

Oh yes, that's right: SE has and uses DPS meters to balance raid content, but the filthy plebe players aren't allowed to have them to know whether or not they're doing enough damage to CLEAR said raid content.

"FFXIV: Our raids have DPS checks, but we don't let you check your DPS!"

Exhibit A:


Sure it's just an alpha picture, but it doesn't change the fact that they use a debug version to test content, also iirc this is big man YoshiP himself showing off Primals

[BubblyBoar]

I've run into some 20 of exactly those kinds of people. (Sadly that's about equal to how many I've seen say "how about I'll play how I like and you can deal with it" or have threatened to try to ban anyone who asked to shape up.) I've also seen people seek friends out to parse them on a dummy or over a dungeon run (surprisingly often, they're worried less about their fixed rotation than their number sense and general priorities, so to speak, which a longer run may bring more insight towards) because either they can't get theirs to work or are on PS3/4. There certainly are those players who at present are without parsers but can nonetheless make use of them. They're no huge crowd, but they're not mythical creatures.

You seem to misunderstand what I said. I'm guessing you missed my ealier posts. Basically, those kinds of people are already seeking help. They didn't need to have a parser shoved in their face with actual numbers to want to improve. Someone told them they weren't doing great, so they got better. They didn't need the game literally telling them their exact numbers to get better. What we have now was enough. We know it's enough because you've literally just said so. There didn't need to be an in-game parser for that to happen. Likewise, I'm not denying the other type of person either. The one that doesn't want to improve and tells you to stuff it. An in-game parser isn't going to make them suddenly want to get better. Even if people like that actually see the number in front of their face, they won't improve. So again....these magical reasonable players that need to see actual parsing data in game and go "Oh, maybe I was bad, I'll be a good DPS now" don't exist. And the ones people claim to exist are trying already, without parsers in-game.

The only thing the parser in-game allows for is shoving your number into the face of people that don't care for them, good or bad.