Next Job/Jobs Speculation

[Kazrah]

Only concept that could differentiate tanking enough to me at this point to be appealing would be to include an evasion tank, and I'm not sure how well you could pull that off with this game's combat system.

Some form of periodic damage absorption is usually the go-to approach to mimic the mechanical effects of an evasion tank while having it nowhere near as broken as an actual evasion tank in any game.

[Dark-Saviour]

Some form of periodic damage absorption is usually the go-to approach to mimic the mechanical effects of an evasion tank while having it nowhere near as broken as an actual evasion tank in any game.

Yeah, but a stat-based evasion-tank isn't even particularly enjoyable either, so a facsimile is even less desirable. You would need a combat system where all of the attacks could be evaded by active player input, and mitigation is the closest you can do here without a massive change to encounters.

[Kazrah]

Yeah, but a stat-based evasion-tank isn't even particularly enjoyable either, so a facsimile is even less desirable. You would need a combat system where all of the attacks could be evaded by active player input, and mitigation is the closest you can do here without a massive change to encounters.

Oh, so in other words, you're basically asking for something completely broken and wouldn't make it in any balanced MMORPG, let alone FFXIV. Even games that do have dodge mechanics still have you being hit by normal attacks, so no, can't really help there.

[Harukochi]

[Savagelf]

my suggest with beastmaster is hybrid pet/dps jobs were when beastmaster attack the pet does. where a pet can gain train point like early vanilla wow had. unlike hunter in wow beastmaster is melee to medium range Job. It weapon of choice is the whips. for example SE could make pet base on size. a Mammoth size beast is consider a tank, while tiger size beast is dps. a monkey size beast is more a kind to a rogue like dps. each pets has different pet skills depend on there family. the different is we could NM beast make come back for ffxi to ffxiv. a beast could learn skill for fight they own kind and could get selective skill in that area also you can take pet into dungeons. pets like tiger and monkey size can be able move with the beastmaster in cities while a mammoth size beast can not. pets family skills and combats relative skills. drake have elemental breath attack depend on they elemental. while tiger and lion have rake like skill cause a small bleed effect moves.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Only concept that could differentiate tanking enough to me at this point to be appealing would be to include an evasion tank.

Tanks have 3 things to help make them unique.
(1) Methods to make life easier on the healer, to encourage the idea only they should be hit. (Mitigation being the best example.)
(2) Methods to get enough threat, so they can actually use their defensive options.
(3) Methods to deal damage, when they arent needing to be defense, or AS defensive.

Saying "Only an evasion tank would bring anything unique" is suggesting there cant be anything unique in the other 2 parts of being a tank.
WAR being an example, its Fell Cleave is tied to its Inner Beast. Its made most WARs refuse to use inner beast, even if they have no CDs, and they WILL die to an attack. (I see this occasionally in Savage, its a bit frustrating.)
So this is the unique feature in WAR, from #3.

Flash being an example of #2, where it mixes mitigation and threat, but lacks any dps gain.

Anyways, the real issue is that too many jobs have overlapping ideas, taking away uniqueness. (Though they did a decent job of making it so DPS have less overlapping ideas, like some jobs not having DoTs now.)

All possible Forms of Mitigation used in prior games (that I know of, ill add more to the list if I realized I forgot something later.);
Increased max HP. (perma stance or stoneskin shield.)
-X% dmg taken mitigation. (stance, rampart)
X% chance to lower dmg. (parry, or Block. Or reverse DH.)
X% chance to ignore all dmg. (Evasion)
Take no dmg. (evasion, holmgang, hallowed ground, stuns, etc)
Heal HP (cure, thrill, regen, absorb)
Increase heals potency (convalescence)
Delayed Damage (the only thing close to this in 14, is Living Dead, but this is more so a Monk ability in WoW, where they still get the damage, but it comes at them slowly as a DoT, which can then be cured off.)
Replace HP with another source. (Not in 14, but an example is "Damage MP" from BLU in FFT. Make another source go down, instead of HP. Or X% of dmg goes to the other source.)

Within those are a variety of ways to do them, including self buffs, targeting the mobs with debuffs, applies within job mechanics/resources to maintain, the cost of another action/category, like fell cleave, or affecting an aera/ground, rather than the boss directly. (There are probably a few more.)

Then within those are a variety of ways to execute those actions. Be it Weapon Skills, Combos, Positionals, Spells, Channels, or oGCD abilities.

Then you also have duration/CD differences, along with intermixing effects of other abilities, be it to buff them, or weaken them.

SE has this weird habbit of making 1 tank job, and giving it 90% of what I just wrote. And of course all tank jobs are going to play similar to eachother...

But yes, next up is Threat, and DPS, which I wont write all out.

On a side note, after seeing WoW come up with the "Delayed dmg" idea for Monk, I realized there is still ways to make new forms of mitigation, we just need to think harder, and think of more complex concepts, besides just a single stats that lower dmg. Ive had a few ideas of my own, but they get a bit too complex to explain easily here, and some of which dont fit within how FFXIV intends to function.

[dinnertime]

Am I the only one who prefers Dancer to be a DPS? Specifically an enfeebling support job like it usually is.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Am I the only one who prefers Dancer to be a DPS? Specifically an enfeebling support job like it usually is.

Technically I imagine Dancer as a DPS enfeebler like you say, but it was also one of the few times an MMO allowed a "Melee Healer" so people are wanting to see something different for healers for once, rather than just reskinning the same abilities, with little to no difference in playstyles. (I myself love to heal, but hate casters, which is the main reason i played tanks instead of healers. Then again I hate cloth and daggers, so I didnt main a DNC, I mained PLD and BLU instead in XI, and played PLD and DRK over healer in XIV)

[JunseiKei]

I'd sort of like to see Blue Mage in the way I kind of envision it being able to work in FFXIV. You use glamours to 'become' the monster you want, shifting in and out of each monster's form and inflicting different types of statuses. It'd be DoT heavy, no pet, and a weird mix of physical and magical damage (not like Red Mage that has close ranged magic when using melee combo at 80/80 mana). Like, this attack does physical damage, but the DoT you place is magic. It'd end up being a close ranged, instant-cast magic DPS.

[Kazrah]

On a side note, after seeing WoW come up with the "Delayed dmg" idea for Monk, I realized there is still ways to make new forms of mitigation, we just need to think harder, and think of more complex concepts, besides just a single stats that lower dmg. Ive had a few ideas of my own, but they get a bit too complex to explain easily here, and some of which dont fit within how FFXIV intends to function.

That is one example, although it seems to take Blizzard months to re-balance it with each expansion. It's not the only example though.....

To balance most absorption effects, Rift had them absorb only a major portion of damage, usually around 85% of all damage taken up to a certain point (with only a couple of rare examples absorbing all damage). WoW also implemented a system like this with the Protection Warrior skill Ignore Pain.

Another example that WoW has used for a while in various parts of their toolkit for Paladin has been periodic damage absorption via Sacred Shield and now Blessing of Kings, where every few seconds, a bubble is created to absorb a small amount of damage (usually around 5% of max health). I used this for my Sorcerer concept as a means of imitating evasion tanking on a far more balanced level.

Aion's Aethertech class is a prime example of damage outsourcing, implementing a partial MP shielding system where a portion of all damage is reduced (~30%), but a greater portion of that reduced damage (~75% of it) would be dealt as MP damage. To offset the MP strain, the class also came with a multitude of MP generation skills, including a full combo, a proc buff, a charge-up skill and multiple cooldowns.

I'd say DCUO probably wins the award in tank innovation. One of the first tanking powers (Ice) had a cooldown that granted near-immunity to all damage and other negative effects while fully healing at the expense of not being able to move or attack for the duration of the ability. Another one (Earth) implemented the use of damage deference via the use of a pet or totem, where a portion of damage taken by the player would be redirected to the pet or totem, which would be compensated with access to abilities that could heal the pet or totem. Then there's the Rage powerset in DCUO, which bears a "high risk, high reward" system that can either be abysmally pathetic in the wrong hands or outright broken in the right ones.

Somewhere I have an exact ability formula of how devs have made tanks in SB (not like it's that hard to get). I think I might have to post that somewhere along with the one for healers....