Tales from the Storm Discussion

[Theodric]

-snip-

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced. They had valid concerns, especially since they weren't just protesting the peace efforts - which was born out of a desire for closure and vengeance. They were also protesting the decision for Aymeric to keep the class divide intact despite Ishgard's nobility being revealed to be built on a lie. There's a bit more charity in the Brume nowadays but the commoners are still living a terrible life in comparison to those who were allowed to continue being nobles.

All I'm saying is that there should have been lasting consequences. Aymeric is particularly slimy since he chose to distract his people with a tournament shortly afterwards in an effort to bring them together...and then later committed Ishgard's forces to a foreign war that did not concern them. A trade deal alone would have been enough to pay off any debts to the rest of the Eorzean Alliance. Ishgard's reform came at the cost of the blood of many of its own people and violently arresting or putting down those with differing viewpoints. At no point were the concerns or viewpoints of the opposition ever considered or accounted for - because Aymeric had decided his way was 'best' and ignored every other possible point of view.

I certainly hope that the situation in Ala Mhigo will not play out in a similar manner. If the protagonists pave the way to reform with the blood of their own people, I want that to result in dire consequences for those who would position themselves as leader figures - not brush it off as a grim necessity and argue that they 'had no choice' or that their opponent's viewpoints were 'wrongthink'.

[Cilia]

12 hour shifts suck. Let me just say that Ishgard is now a bicameral parliamentary republic, so anything it does as a nation nowadays can't be blamed on Aymeric's decisions alone.

[YianKutku]

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced.

Through violence.

My point about Ishgard's democracy being curiously quick to form was not that there should be turmoil, but that there should be a lot more talking. As in months of negotiations and politicking and horse-trading, and even longer just to set down procedures for doing so, much less actual issues.

Unfortunately, I don't think most players will be willing to sit through even more dialogue, especially if there's no real payoff in a reasonable amount of time. It's simply not exciting enough for MMO gameplay.

If it turns out Ala Mhigo will have even more violence and blood as they work their way to whatever form of governance they'll end up with, I'll be very disappointed. There is no reason for there to be Moral Ambiguity via violence other than for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing.

Working out problems through negotiation and compromise is far trickier to make for interesting fiction, but it's significantly more satisfying. Sadly, considering our current criticisms of Lyse's role as leader, I'm not sure the writing team is up to that.

[Shurrikhan]

If it turns out Ala Mhigo will have even more violence and blood as they work their way to whatever form of governance they'll end up with, I'll be very disappointed. There is no reason for there to be Moral Ambiguity via violence other than for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing.

Working out problems through negotiation and compromise is far trickier to make for interesting fiction, but it's significantly more satisfying. Sadly, considering our current criticisms of Lyse's role as leader, I'm not sure the writing team is up to that.

This was definitely one of the kinds of post-plots I was most looking forward to.
...But also the kind I have the least faith in their being able to make.
Heavens forbid, it might require that a dialogue choice have impact on more than part of the following text block.

[Belhi]

Its worth mentioning, the protestors in Ishgard were not representative of the majority of the public which is why the resorted to sceptical to try and win public opinion. In general people seemed to be bone tired of war. Our goal was peace. For the people who would refuse to accept that and for who only war and vengeance could solve, we had to opposed because that exact frame of mind was why Ishgard had been trapped in 1000 years of war, death and suffering. That is why we fought Nidhogg.

Ishgard is still a work in progress. The fundamental difference is that the commoners now have a voice in politics. This is still playing out. The MCH quests seem to be dealing with the Watch earning legitimacy in Ishgard. However the opportunity has galvanised the common class which as lead them to being far more proactive and feeling far more involved. This is also a factor with the Grand Melee. Aymeric intentionally had representatives of both the nobles and the commoners in what was a championing of Ishgard's military standing. For a society where martial prowess is revered, having commoners among those fighting would definitely have appealed to the common class and indicated inclusiveness.

Again, this ties into what will happen in Ala Mhigo. We will probably have to smack down elements at some point who try and resort to violence and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Garlemald tries to throw a fly in the ointment somewhere. However the key is to give everyone involved a common goal and idea and make everyone feel involved. Lyse has a better mindset for that than most.

[Cilia]

---

Aymeric did the best he could in his situation.

The events of 3.1 played out precisely because he tried to force radical change on the nation - the nobility violently opposed it, leading to him almost being assassinated and a terrorist incident. The central seat of governmental power was seized, hostages were taken and threatened, and a string of arson was carried out through the city - all because the nobility's power was threatened. By Aymeric.

The peace conference? Well, emotionally-driven sunk cost fallacies being good for convincing people aside (M'naago does the same thing after the massacre at Rhalgr's Reach), when given the chance to speak Aymeric directly countered Lowdy's argument - he convinced the assembly to give up on revenge and asserted that the fallen gave their lives so their loved ones could live, not dedicate their lives to perpetuating a cycle of vengeance and death. This moved even Lowdy to tears, and she is genuinely remorseful when you encounter her during the DRK 63 quest.

The tournament was designed to restore faith in Ishgard's martial tradition, not distract people from social unrest. (Worked for Rome though!)

Emmanellain screwed up ordering Lowdy shot. Twice. While he faced no punishment, after making excuses for his actions to Thancred and getting decked for it he works on being a better person. I do think he should have been punished, but that's not really up to me.

The class divide is something that will take time to heal, but they are working on it. The bicameral structure of Ishgard's new government includes the House of Commons and House of Lords, neither of which have power over the other and are filled with elected representatives. The entire point of this governmental structure is to give the commoners a say in how their country is run. There will always be the well-to-do and there will always be the poorer class but they are working on it.

Aymeric considered the other viewpoints. He persuaded them to his - he didn't silence anyone, and other than Lowdy being shot by Emmanellain in a panic nobody was "put down" or arrested without very good reason (re: ringleader of the True Brothers of the Faith throws a child from the top of the Vault).

My point about Ishgard's democracy being curiously quick to form was not that there should be turmoil, but that there should be a lot more talking. As in months of negotiations and politicking and horse-trading, and even longer just to set down procedures for doing so, much less actual issues.

It's heavily implied some period of time passes between Nidhogg's defeat and when you meet Aymeric on Ishgard's airship docks, where he explains he's no longer the acting head of state but now an elected official of high standing. I place it at 1 - 2 months; while that is very quick, I'm quite sure Ishgard was desperate to get a proper government of some sort up and running instead of leaving Aymeric as the de facto ruler indefinitely. They probably figured they'd work out the kinks later... that's what I think, anyway.

[Belhi]

I think we see plenty of examples from other sources that Ishgard is still working through its issues. It has come up in the Scholisticate, the MCH quest, the MSQ and general dialog. The main point with Ishgard is that all parties are interested in there being an Ishgard and are open to compromise. The commoners because they have been offered a potential non violent path to influence and change and the House of Nobles because of enough representatives open to adaptation and probably because they can tell the way the wind is blowing and realise change is going to happen and its better to have some say in that change than to try and forcefully stop it. As Aymeric said, without the war to give the classes a common enemy the lower classes aren't just going to put up with the same treatment for ever, particularly now the originals of the houses is common knowledge.

Doma seems to probably be likely to face a smooth transition and I will be interested to see if the Enclave updates as patches progress. Would be a great place to have crafter and gatherer content. I do wonder however if we will see any reflection on the scars of the past in moving forward and the Doma Hein wants to build.

[Alleo]

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced. They had valid concerns, especially since they weren't just protesting the peace efforts - which was born out of a desire for closure and vengeance. They were also protesting the decision for Aymeric to keep the class divide intact despite Ishgard's nobility being revealed to be built on a lie. There's a bit more charity in the Brume nowadays but the commoners are still living a terrible life in comparison to those who were allowed to continue being nobles.

They went and put our WoL to sleep and after that they attacked the other people with weapons. Also their concerns were not that valid, they just wanted to go on because they lost people in the war thus hated all dragons. They are the product that Nidhogg wanted to create with his endless assault on Ishgard. Also unlike his father Aymeric has never shown that he would not be willing to hear someone out yet instead of going to him and talk to him they took us out and acted violently.

The tournament was held because he saw that he needs something to motivate the knights and thus he had the idea that they would fight a friendly battle against the other city states to prove to the knights that they are still good fighters thus could be proud about themselves. Also he gave the barmaid (and probably all the other ones that survived it) freedom even though they acted against the interest of their own state.

Also please dont forget that right now Ishgard is not ruled by Aymeric alone, he is just the one representing the state, thus the others needed to accept the going to war too...and this is war for the Eorzean alliance which they are now part of too..so yes it concerns them. Instead of being a ruler all by himself he wanted all of Ishgard to have a part in this, thus even the common people have their voices heard there. And lets not forget that he still needed the help of the wealthy people of Ishgard thus he could not just throw away the complete system because with that he would have lost any way to form a new state. Change does not come over night thus he does some small steps by having the common people in the government too.

Also the rebells wanted the war to not stop..why should he listen to them? This would have only created more and more bloodshed.

Ala Mhigo did not create something right now with the blood of their own people on their hand and we dont even know how this will go..All the talk about nuance but anything that does not go right in Eorzea is always painted in such a negative way..its not Aymerics fault that those people decided to go to weapons instead of talking it out first..and one cant fault him for not solving all the problems that are part of Ishgard in such a short amount of time. I mean even in our world we cant just simply solve everything in a society. And I am sure that there would be complaining about the story if everything would have been solved perfectly..

Anyway this is my last post about this. I dont want to further get this off topic.

[Grayve]

Just want to say regarding our MNK friend that the reluctant ruler being the best ruler is a common trope. And that giving up a spiritual life for the needs of others is one as well. I don't think it will be him as leader, but it could be.

[Belhi]

Just want to say regarding our MNK friend that the reluctant ruler being the best ruler is a common trope. And that giving up a spiritual life for the needs of others is one as well. I don't think it will be him as leader, but it could be.

As I said before, he has no interest in such a role. He has his plate a bit too full to be dragged into a leadership role and frankly I don't think a lot of Ala Mhigans would accept him in such a role.