Tales from the Storm Discussion

[YianKutku]

A question I've been asking myself, and I'm still not sure about the answer:

If you think Lyse is (or will be) a good leader or otherwise, do you have the same opinion of Minfilia during ARR?

Have none of you ever wondered, if Lyse were truly such a horrible person — as many of you seem to think she is — how did she come to have such friends who are willing to go through hell and high water for her?

It's possible for someone to be a great person, and a horrible choice for a leader, at the same time, without contradictions. The qualities required to be seen as a "good person" and the qualities required to be a "good leader" may have some Venn diagram overlap, but they are not identical.

Lyse is a good person, and up until 3.55, an inveterate optimist. As Conrad says, she's seen death and sorrow, but does not let it break her. However, as I've complained about before, this aspect of her gets shoved into the sidelines hard during Stormblood, just so they can do the character growth plotline of an uncertain leader learning what leadership means. This requires a character who questions themselves often (for the benefit of the audience), and that doesn't mesh with Yda-Lyse's cheerful happy-go-lucky style.

Lyse is also a combat monster, of the "solo multiple magitek armours" sort. This aspect has not changed, and the only reason we don't see a lot of it on-screen is due to game engine restrictions. We do often encounter her in the aftermath of some battle, surrounded by the broken debris of however many enemy critters unwisely decided to engage her.

So Lyse is, and will always be, a valuable member of the Scions and the Resistance. The Tales From The Storm story illustrates that very well.

It just doesn't mean that she'll be a good leader, the way everyone else keeps pushing her into being. At this point, I'd say that Lyse will be a competent leader; she's not going to make any hugely stupid decisions, at least not twice.

But in the aftermath of the Stormblood story, Ala Mhigo needs more than mere competence. And nothing shown so far has proven that Lyse is up to the task.

Which is what the 4.x patches should be doing, I suppose. It's just that, as mentioned, we've had an entire expansion supposedly focusing on Lyse, and there hasn't seem to be as much progress as that would imply.

Setting aside discussion of Lyse for a moment, M'naago's inner monologue where she offhandedly dismisses the notion that liberated Ala Mhigo will be ruled by a king I felt was a very interesting and easily overlooked tidbit from this story. Sod that. We've had enough of kings.

It would be interesting if Ala Mhigo turned into a democratic republic, like Ishgard. (Exact degree of democracy may vary, but it would definitely qualify as "more than before".) From what I can tell, the one person actually in line for the Ala Mhigan throne has no more interest in it.

However, setting up a democracy of any sort takes time and a lot of effort; I've always been irritated by how easy Ishgard made it look.

If I had to pick, Raubahn seems the natural choice for a new political leader. He's no stranger to politics, he's extremely charismatic, he's Ala Mhigan by birth, and played a very prominent role in Ala Mhigo's liberation (albeit as the representative of another nation's army). He does have that troublesome berserk button, but said button takes some mighty extreme circumstances to push. Probably most troublesome, though, is that he almost certainly does not want the job - he's extremely attached to the Sultana, and it's unlikely that he'll ever leave his place by her side by choice.

I always got the impression that the whole point of 2.55 and subsequent quest dialogues is that Raubahn has, either consciously or otherwise, decided that his loyalties lie with Ul'dah now, not Ala Mhigo. As Ilberd more or less accused him, Raubahn has left his homeland behind for a new one. He still wants to liberate Ala Mhigo, and he still thinks of himself as Ala Mhigan with pride, but his home now is Ul'dah. And that was what made Ilberd betray him in the end.

With Raubahn's dialogue in 3.56 and onwards, though, it seems like this aspect of him is being softened, to increase the possibility that he'll decide to return to Ala Mhigo. It's only a small possibility at the moment, but it's there, and more than there was in, say, ARR.

EDIT:

Further, she wants an Ala Mhigo which is inclusive of everyone, even people like Fordola who operated under imperial rule.

I think this is especially important to remember. To be fair, I don't count it as a narrative plus point for Lyse being leader, since that sentiment could have been voiced by anyone, but the game picked Lyse, and that's what we have to work with.

We've already seen some combat chatter from random Ala Mhigan NPCs about killing all Garleans, and I think I remember something about death to all collaborators and such. On the one hand, we have Fordola and the Skulls, who have been shown on-screen to brutalize their fellow Ala Mhigans, for little to no reason.

On the other hand, we have the people of Radiata, who work for the Garleans because they were more or less forced to. How far do we consider collaboration with the enemy? Is there a clear demarcation? Should the people of Radiata be subject to the same punishment as the Skulls?

What about mere fraternization? There's the woman who became close friends with an Imperial soldier stationed at Specula Imperatoris, and after the battle, the woman asks for your help in performing a memorial.

And then there are the merchants of Ala Ghiri, who sold goods to the Imperials simply because the Imperials were the only customers they had.

One of Lyse's new and more important duties as the leader of the Ala Mhigan Resistance is to sort all of this out, and convince everyone else that her way is the best way for all concerned. For some cases like Fordola, justice needs to be served, and seen to be served. For others like Baut, mercy and forgiveness is almost a given. But for everyone else in between, things get a lot more complicated.

Seeing as one of Lyse's defining character traits is that she is not a thinker, I can only hope she gets some good advisors.

[Theodric]

However, setting up a democracy of any sort takes time and a lot of effort; I've always been irritated by how easy Ishgard made it look.

It doesn't help that there was minimal fallout for the slaughter of those who sought to protest against the decision to forge peace with the Dravanians and perpetuate the divide between the nobles and the common folk despite the influential bloodlines being built upon lies.

I recently took an alt through Heavensward and in the aftermath of the failed protest at the Ishgardian peace summit the quest text outright states that the protesters lay dead or dying. A handful survived, but it should have been a much bigger deal that others did not when it was regular Ishgardians trying to put their point of view on the table and fight for what they believed in.

Yet Aymeric gets to sit comfortably in a cushy position of supreme leadership and the youngest heir of House Fortemps - despite being trigger happy during the protest - also later gets a position of prominence, albeit in Camp Dragonhead. I want the fallout of Ala Mhigo's liberation to be messy and if there is any blood on the hands of the protagonists then I want there to be lasting consequences. I want them to lie awake at night, unable to sleep. Not giggling with joy and drinking wine whenever the Warrior of Light happens to come and visit them.

I'm cautiously optimistic that things in Ala Mhigo will be more satisfying and nuanced - but I do have some concerns given how much plot convenience there is surrounding Lyse at the moment. Ilberd is proof enough that Ala Mhigans can be very self sabotaging. I want to see more of that - because there's numerous factions within the Resistance (supposedly) and realistically not all will be pleased to see someone like Lyse take control of the entire nation. Especially since most of her life has been spent outside of Ala Mhigo. This is also in a similar vein to why I don't feel as though Raubahn would make a good leader. He's far too invested in Ul'dah in the present day and has been focused on its affairs for quite some time now.

[YianKutku]

I recently took an alt through Heavensward and in the aftermath of the failed protest at the Ishgardian peace summit the quest text outright states that the protesters lay dead or dying. A handful survived, but it should have been a much bigger deal that others did not when it was regular Ishgardians trying to put their point of view on the table and fight for what they believed in.

It was not a peaceful protest. The protestors who died either killed themselves, or attacked the knights providing security. The only exception we are shown was the ringleader, who survived being shot.

If this is how the protestors see as "trying to put their point of view on the table", it was not a good way to do so.

[Theodric]

-snip-

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced. They had valid concerns, especially since they weren't just protesting the peace efforts - which was born out of a desire for closure and vengeance. They were also protesting the decision for Aymeric to keep the class divide intact despite Ishgard's nobility being revealed to be built on a lie. There's a bit more charity in the Brume nowadays but the commoners are still living a terrible life in comparison to those who were allowed to continue being nobles.

All I'm saying is that there should have been lasting consequences. Aymeric is particularly slimy since he chose to distract his people with a tournament shortly afterwards in an effort to bring them together...and then later committed Ishgard's forces to a foreign war that did not concern them. A trade deal alone would have been enough to pay off any debts to the rest of the Eorzean Alliance. Ishgard's reform came at the cost of the blood of many of its own people and violently arresting or putting down those with differing viewpoints. At no point were the concerns or viewpoints of the opposition ever considered or accounted for - because Aymeric had decided his way was 'best' and ignored every other possible point of view.

I certainly hope that the situation in Ala Mhigo will not play out in a similar manner. If the protagonists pave the way to reform with the blood of their own people, I want that to result in dire consequences for those who would position themselves as leader figures - not brush it off as a grim necessity and argue that they 'had no choice' or that their opponent's viewpoints were 'wrongthink'.

[YianKutku]

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced.

Through violence.

My point about Ishgard's democracy being curiously quick to form was not that there should be turmoil, but that there should be a lot more talking. As in months of negotiations and politicking and horse-trading, and even longer just to set down procedures for doing so, much less actual issues.

Unfortunately, I don't think most players will be willing to sit through even more dialogue, especially if there's no real payoff in a reasonable amount of time. It's simply not exciting enough for MMO gameplay.

If it turns out Ala Mhigo will have even more violence and blood as they work their way to whatever form of governance they'll end up with, I'll be very disappointed. There is no reason for there to be Moral Ambiguity via violence other than for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing.

Working out problems through negotiation and compromise is far trickier to make for interesting fiction, but it's significantly more satisfying. Sadly, considering our current criticisms of Lyse's role as leader, I'm not sure the writing team is up to that.

[Shurrikhan]

If it turns out Ala Mhigo will have even more violence and blood as they work their way to whatever form of governance they'll end up with, I'll be very disappointed. There is no reason for there to be Moral Ambiguity via violence other than for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing.

Working out problems through negotiation and compromise is far trickier to make for interesting fiction, but it's significantly more satisfying. Sadly, considering our current criticisms of Lyse's role as leader, I'm not sure the writing team is up to that.

This was definitely one of the kinds of post-plots I was most looking forward to.
...But also the kind I have the least faith in their being able to make.
Heavens forbid, it might require that a dialogue choice have impact on more than part of the following text block.

[Cilia]

---

Aymeric did the best he could in his situation.

The events of 3.1 played out precisely because he tried to force radical change on the nation - the nobility violently opposed it, leading to him almost being assassinated and a terrorist incident. The central seat of governmental power was seized, hostages were taken and threatened, and a string of arson was carried out through the city - all because the nobility's power was threatened. By Aymeric.

The peace conference? Well, emotionally-driven sunk cost fallacies being good for convincing people aside (M'naago does the same thing after the massacre at Rhalgr's Reach), when given the chance to speak Aymeric directly countered Lowdy's argument - he convinced the assembly to give up on revenge and asserted that the fallen gave their lives so their loved ones could live, not dedicate their lives to perpetuating a cycle of vengeance and death. This moved even Lowdy to tears, and she is genuinely remorseful when you encounter her during the DRK 63 quest.

The tournament was designed to restore faith in Ishgard's martial tradition, not distract people from social unrest. (Worked for Rome though!)

Emmanellain screwed up ordering Lowdy shot. Twice. While he faced no punishment, after making excuses for his actions to Thancred and getting decked for it he works on being a better person. I do think he should have been punished, but that's not really up to me.

The class divide is something that will take time to heal, but they are working on it. The bicameral structure of Ishgard's new government includes the House of Commons and House of Lords, neither of which have power over the other and are filled with elected representatives. The entire point of this governmental structure is to give the commoners a say in how their country is run. There will always be the well-to-do and there will always be the poorer class but they are working on it.

Aymeric considered the other viewpoints. He persuaded them to his - he didn't silence anyone, and other than Lowdy being shot by Emmanellain in a panic nobody was "put down" or arrested without very good reason (re: ringleader of the True Brothers of the Faith throws a child from the top of the Vault).

My point about Ishgard's democracy being curiously quick to form was not that there should be turmoil, but that there should be a lot more talking. As in months of negotiations and politicking and horse-trading, and even longer just to set down procedures for doing so, much less actual issues.

It's heavily implied some period of time passes between Nidhogg's defeat and when you meet Aymeric on Ishgard's airship docks, where he explains he's no longer the acting head of state but now an elected official of high standing. I place it at 1 - 2 months; while that is very quick, I'm quite sure Ishgard was desperate to get a proper government of some sort up and running instead of leaving Aymeric as the de facto ruler indefinitely. They probably figured they'd work out the kinks later... that's what I think, anyway.

[Alleo]

It wasn't peaceful, though it was regular civilians trying to put their point of view across after being silenced. They had valid concerns, especially since they weren't just protesting the peace efforts - which was born out of a desire for closure and vengeance. They were also protesting the decision for Aymeric to keep the class divide intact despite Ishgard's nobility being revealed to be built on a lie. There's a bit more charity in the Brume nowadays but the commoners are still living a terrible life in comparison to those who were allowed to continue being nobles.

They went and put our WoL to sleep and after that they attacked the other people with weapons. Also their concerns were not that valid, they just wanted to go on because they lost people in the war thus hated all dragons. They are the product that Nidhogg wanted to create with his endless assault on Ishgard. Also unlike his father Aymeric has never shown that he would not be willing to hear someone out yet instead of going to him and talk to him they took us out and acted violently.

The tournament was held because he saw that he needs something to motivate the knights and thus he had the idea that they would fight a friendly battle against the other city states to prove to the knights that they are still good fighters thus could be proud about themselves. Also he gave the barmaid (and probably all the other ones that survived it) freedom even though they acted against the interest of their own state.

Also please dont forget that right now Ishgard is not ruled by Aymeric alone, he is just the one representing the state, thus the others needed to accept the going to war too...and this is war for the Eorzean alliance which they are now part of too..so yes it concerns them. Instead of being a ruler all by himself he wanted all of Ishgard to have a part in this, thus even the common people have their voices heard there. And lets not forget that he still needed the help of the wealthy people of Ishgard thus he could not just throw away the complete system because with that he would have lost any way to form a new state. Change does not come over night thus he does some small steps by having the common people in the government too.

Also the rebells wanted the war to not stop..why should he listen to them? This would have only created more and more bloodshed.

Ala Mhigo did not create something right now with the blood of their own people on their hand and we dont even know how this will go..All the talk about nuance but anything that does not go right in Eorzea is always painted in such a negative way..its not Aymerics fault that those people decided to go to weapons instead of talking it out first..and one cant fault him for not solving all the problems that are part of Ishgard in such a short amount of time. I mean even in our world we cant just simply solve everything in a society. And I am sure that there would be complaining about the story if everything would have been solved perfectly..

Anyway this is my last post about this. I dont want to further get this off topic.