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  1. #41
    Player
    FJerome's Avatar
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    Edhe'li Merwyn
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    Leviathan
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    Weaver Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
    Setting aside discussion of Lyse for a moment, M'naago's inner monologue where she offhandedly dismisses the notion that liberated Ala Mhigo will be ruled by a king I felt was a very interesting and easily overlooked tidbit from this story. Sod that. We've had enough of kings. I doubt it's an uncommon sentiment, as the Mad King's reign was truly horrendous, by all accounts. Nevertheless, I guess at the back of my mind I fully expected that once Ala Mhigo was freed, they'd uncover some lost prince or princess and prop them up as ruler, and everything would be hunky dory. When I read this, however, it dawned on my how unlikely that was - and it also dawned on me that there's been nothing in the story so far to discuss just what they ARE planning to do in terms of a new government.
    There's some NPCs in Rhalgr's Reach making side-commentary about if they want a monarchy or republic but, yes, it doesn't seem like something anyone's really discussed?

    I'm hoping this is going to be a major theme in the 4.1 to 4.X story-line because Ala Mhigo was in the middle of a civil war when the Empire swooped in. The lack of any real discussion on what form of government they'd have post-liberation makes it feel like it's still an extremely fraught and sensitive question and that the monarchist and republican sides are both still nursing a lot of old resentments. Pushing the Garleans back out may have united them for a time but now that the Empire's gone all the old conflicts are still there, waiting to kick off again.

    It'd also be an interesting narrative contrast with Doma, where Hien is widely adored by his people and has no rivals to the throne, so he's already in power and rebuilding the Enclave by the end of 4.0.
    (2)

  2. #42
    Player
    Belhi's Avatar
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    J'talhdi Belhi
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    Bismarck
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    Conjurer Lv 90
    The last known living member of the Royal Family is Wildergelt in the MNK quests who interestingly didn't realise he was and was horrified to find out. Without spoiling those quests its fair to say he has no interest in pursuing a claim.

    One of the give things we will see being dealt with in the patches is what Ala Mhigo does now. The resistance we have been working with is only one of the resistance factions and even then there isn't one single unified opinion on what form of Governance Ala Mhigo should have. That is one of the reasons Conrad picked Lyse. She has traits that almost everyone involved will at least somewhat associate with, if only just being the daughter of a hero of the people. Further, she wants an Ala Mhigo which is inclusive of everyone, even people like Fordola who operated under imperial rule.

    Compared to Doma, that has a clear transition of power, Ala Mhigo is a much more difficult case and likely we are going to have to way in a lot to keep things moving smoothly.
    (4)

  3. #43
    Player
    YianKutku's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Miyo Mohzolhi
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    Sophia
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    Scholar Lv 100
    A question I've been asking myself, and I'm still not sure about the answer:

    If you think Lyse is (or will be) a good leader or otherwise, do you have the same opinion of Minfilia during ARR?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
    Have none of you ever wondered, if Lyse were truly such a horrible person — as many of you seem to think she is — how did she come to have such friends who are willing to go through hell and high water for her?
    It's possible for someone to be a great person, and a horrible choice for a leader, at the same time, without contradictions. The qualities required to be seen as a "good person" and the qualities required to be a "good leader" may have some Venn diagram overlap, but they are not identical.

    Lyse is a good person, and up until 3.55, an inveterate optimist. As Conrad says, she's seen death and sorrow, but does not let it break her. However, as I've complained about before, this aspect of her gets shoved into the sidelines hard during Stormblood, just so they can do the character growth plotline of an uncertain leader learning what leadership means. This requires a character who questions themselves often (for the benefit of the audience), and that doesn't mesh with Yda-Lyse's cheerful happy-go-lucky style.

    Lyse is also a combat monster, of the "solo multiple magitek armours" sort. This aspect has not changed, and the only reason we don't see a lot of it on-screen is due to game engine restrictions. We do often encounter her in the aftermath of some battle, surrounded by the broken debris of however many enemy critters unwisely decided to engage her.

    So Lyse is, and will always be, a valuable member of the Scions and the Resistance. The Tales From The Storm story illustrates that very well.

    It just doesn't mean that she'll be a good leader, the way everyone else keeps pushing her into being. At this point, I'd say that Lyse will be a competent leader; she's not going to make any hugely stupid decisions, at least not twice.

    But in the aftermath of the Stormblood story, Ala Mhigo needs more than mere competence. And nothing shown so far has proven that Lyse is up to the task.

    Which is what the 4.x patches should be doing, I suppose. It's just that, as mentioned, we've had an entire expansion supposedly focusing on Lyse, and there hasn't seem to be as much progress as that would imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
    Setting aside discussion of Lyse for a moment, M'naago's inner monologue where she offhandedly dismisses the notion that liberated Ala Mhigo will be ruled by a king I felt was a very interesting and easily overlooked tidbit from this story. Sod that. We've had enough of kings.
    It would be interesting if Ala Mhigo turned into a democratic republic, like Ishgard. (Exact degree of democracy may vary, but it would definitely qualify as "more than before".) From what I can tell, the one person actually in line for the Ala Mhigan throne has no more interest in it.

    However, setting up a democracy of any sort takes time and a lot of effort; I've always been irritated by how easy Ishgard made it look.

    If I had to pick, Raubahn seems the natural choice for a new political leader. He's no stranger to politics, he's extremely charismatic, he's Ala Mhigan by birth, and played a very prominent role in Ala Mhigo's liberation (albeit as the representative of another nation's army). He does have that troublesome berserk button, but said button takes some mighty extreme circumstances to push. Probably most troublesome, though, is that he almost certainly does not want the job - he's extremely attached to the Sultana, and it's unlikely that he'll ever leave his place by her side by choice.
    I always got the impression that the whole point of 2.55 and subsequent quest dialogues is that Raubahn has, either consciously or otherwise, decided that his loyalties lie with Ul'dah now, not Ala Mhigo. As Ilberd more or less accused him, Raubahn has left his homeland behind for a new one. He still wants to liberate Ala Mhigo, and he still thinks of himself as Ala Mhigan with pride, but his home now is Ul'dah. And that was what made Ilberd betray him in the end.

    With Raubahn's dialogue in 3.56 and onwards, though, it seems like this aspect of him is being softened, to increase the possibility that he'll decide to return to Ala Mhigo. It's only a small possibility at the moment, but it's there, and more than there was in, say, ARR.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Belhi View Post
    Further, she wants an Ala Mhigo which is inclusive of everyone, even people like Fordola who operated under imperial rule.
    I think this is especially important to remember. To be fair, I don't count it as a narrative plus point for Lyse being leader, since that sentiment could have been voiced by anyone, but the game picked Lyse, and that's what we have to work with.

    We've already seen some combat chatter from random Ala Mhigan NPCs about killing all Garleans, and I think I remember something about death to all collaborators and such. On the one hand, we have Fordola and the Skulls, who have been shown on-screen to brutalize their fellow Ala Mhigans, for little to no reason.

    On the other hand, we have the people of Radiata, who work for the Garleans because they were more or less forced to. How far do we consider collaboration with the enemy? Is there a clear demarcation? Should the people of Radiata be subject to the same punishment as the Skulls?

    What about mere fraternization? There's the woman who became close friends with an Imperial soldier stationed at Specula Imperatoris, and after the battle, the woman asks for your help in performing a memorial.

    And then there are the merchants of Ala Ghiri, who sold goods to the Imperials simply because the Imperials were the only customers they had.

    One of Lyse's new and more important duties as the leader of the Ala Mhigan Resistance is to sort all of this out, and convince everyone else that her way is the best way for all concerned. For some cases like Fordola, justice needs to be served, and seen to be served. For others like Baut, mercy and forgiveness is almost a given. But for everyone else in between, things get a lot more complicated.

    Seeing as one of Lyse's defining character traits is that she is not a thinker, I can only hope she gets some good advisors.
    (6)
    Last edited by YianKutku; 08-08-2017 at 04:53 PM. Reason: 1k character limit

  4. #44
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
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    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by YianKutku View Post
    However, setting up a democracy of any sort takes time and a lot of effort; I've always been irritated by how easy Ishgard made it look.
    It doesn't help that there was minimal fallout for the slaughter of those who sought to protest against the decision to forge peace with the Dravanians and perpetuate the divide between the nobles and the common folk despite the influential bloodlines being built upon lies.

    I recently took an alt through Heavensward and in the aftermath of the failed protest at the Ishgardian peace summit the quest text outright states that the protesters lay dead or dying. A handful survived, but it should have been a much bigger deal that others did not when it was regular Ishgardians trying to put their point of view on the table and fight for what they believed in.

    Yet Aymeric gets to sit comfortably in a cushy position of supreme leadership and the youngest heir of House Fortemps - despite being trigger happy during the protest - also later gets a position of prominence, albeit in Camp Dragonhead. I want the fallout of Ala Mhigo's liberation to be messy and if there is any blood on the hands of the protagonists then I want there to be lasting consequences. I want them to lie awake at night, unable to sleep. Not giggling with joy and drinking wine whenever the Warrior of Light happens to come and visit them.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that things in Ala Mhigo will be more satisfying and nuanced - but I do have some concerns given how much plot convenience there is surrounding Lyse at the moment. Ilberd is proof enough that Ala Mhigans can be very self sabotaging. I want to see more of that - because there's numerous factions within the Resistance (supposedly) and realistically not all will be pleased to see someone like Lyse take control of the entire nation. Especially since most of her life has been spent outside of Ala Mhigo. This is also in a similar vein to why I don't feel as though Raubahn would make a good leader. He's far too invested in Ul'dah in the present day and has been focused on its affairs for quite some time now.
    (2)
    Last edited by Theodric; 08-08-2017 at 05:02 PM.

  5. #45
    Player
    YianKutku's Avatar
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    Miyo Mohzolhi
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    Sophia
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    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post
    I recently took an alt through Heavensward and in the aftermath of the failed protest at the Ishgardian peace summit the quest text outright states that the protesters lay dead or dying. A handful survived, but it should have been a much bigger deal that others did not when it was regular Ishgardians trying to put their point of view on the table and fight for what they believed in.
    It was not a peaceful protest. The protestors who died either killed themselves, or attacked the knights providing security. The only exception we are shown was the ringleader, who survived being shot.

    If this is how the protestors see as "trying to put their point of view on the table", it was not a good way to do so.
    (8)

  6. #46
    Player
    Enkidoh's Avatar
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    Enkidoh Roux
    World
    Balmung
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    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by FJerome View Post
    There's some NPCs in Rhalgr's Reach making side-commentary about if they want a monarchy or republic but, yes, it doesn't seem like something anyone's really discussed?

    I'm hoping this is going to be a major theme in the 4.1 to 4.X story-line because Ala Mhigo was in the middle of a civil war when the Empire swooped in.
    Not to let Ala Mhigo entirely off the hook (given their well known history of belligerence), but the Ala Mhigan civil war and the atrocities committed by the King of Ruin was actually due to Garlean plotting - Gaius was the one responsible who realized attacking front on Eorzea's 'strongest and most technologically advanced' citystate was not going to end well for him, so he waited and schemed, stirring up trouble inside the city and feeding Theoduric's paranoia.

    Gaius waited nearly ten years for the results of his plot to come to fruition, and they succeeded beyond his wildest dreams - fed up with Theoduric's tyranny the Ala Mhigan people overthrew him in a brief but violent coup, and Gaius pretty much then just marched in and took over (one account states that the Ala Mhigans actually welcomed the Garleans, although that is contradicted by other accounts that they quickly and violently occupied the nation and annexed it almost overnight).

    This is also the origins and reasons why the Corpse Brigade have such a bad name, they are the remnants of Theoduric's personal guard, so they're held with outright contempt by even their own countrymen and women and are thus shunned by most of the refugees in Little Ala Mhigo, leading them to become bandits and outlaws.

    As others have mentioned there were those in the Resistance who had begun to debate exactly how Ala Mhigo's new government should be formed after the city was liberated, but a democratic republic is probably the most likely outcome (as mentioned Wildergart is the only known surviving member of the Ala Mhigan royal family and he is not interested in claiming the throne, instead focusing on rebuilding the Fists of Rhalgr).

    Given that Ishgard made the transition from an autocratic theocracy to a democratic parliamentary republic fairly easily, and that even Ul'dah is toying with the idea (or rather, Nanamo is), republicanism is probably where Ala Mhigo's future ultimately lies (a further hint towards that is that certain Echo scene where none less than the American Revolution is channeled ).
    (7)
    Last edited by Enkidoh; 08-08-2017 at 07:00 PM.

  7. #47
    Player
    Alleo's Avatar
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    Light Khah
    World
    Moogle
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    Arcanist Lv 91
    LineageRazor: Well there is a certain "lost" prince of Ala Mhigo. And I really hope that he will play a bigger role in the main story. (Was kinda surprised to not even see him there) I also cant see Lyse as a leader of a nation and if they dont want a king anymore, then I cant see them letting one people rule alone.

    I am going to put my answer about Ishgard beyond a spoiler because its a bit off topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodric View Post

    I recently took an alt through Heavensward and in the aftermath of the failed protest at the Ishgardian peace summit the quest text outright states that the protesters lay dead or dying. A handful survived, but it should have been a much bigger deal that others did not when it was regular Ishgardians trying to put their point of view on the table and fight for what they believed in.

    Yet Aymeric gets to sit comfortably in a cushy position of supreme leadership and the youngest heir of House Fortemps - despite being trigger happy during the protest - also later gets a position of prominence, albeit in Camp Dragonhead. I want the fallout of Ala Mhigo's liberation to be messy and if there is any blood on the hands of the protagonists then I want there to be lasting consequences. I want them to lie awake at night, unable to sleep. Not giggling with joy and drinking wine whenever the Warrior of Light happens to come and visit them.
    They did not just protest...the barmaid went to us, poisoned us and after that they went onwards to stop the peace meeting from happening by fighting armed against the soldiers. They were intending to kill the others and stop peace from happening. Saying that they just wanted to be heard is really downplaying what they wanted to try. Haurchefants younger brother overreacted at that situation and ordered an attack on the speaking barmaid which was shown to be frowned upon. Yet even after all she did, the barmaid was not imprisoned for the rest of her life for the stunt she tried to pull.

    So it was not Aymerics fault that this happened and he even forgave those that survived, even though this could have been the end of all the peace talk and could have meant further ongoing war.

    The youngest heir overreacted in that situation but learned from this and matured thus why he got the job.

    Please stop painting all the others in a bad light in a situation that was truly not something harmless. These rebells wanted no peace, they did not want to live a life together with the dragons (which is kinda understandable after all they went through but does not change the results) and thus tried to go against it with weapons. If they had stood there with no weapons and only talked about this then yes them being killed would be too much. But they were ready to take other peoples lives (and might even have done so) thus they needed to be put down. The youngest Fortemp brother was overreacting but this was shown as a mistake in the game.

    So you want good people that tried their best by freeing their home nation and also tried to solve stuff without blood to be haunted by a mistake for a long time? Wow thats harsh.
    (4)
    Last edited by Alleo; 08-08-2017 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #48
    Player
    FJerome's Avatar
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    Edhe'li Merwyn
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    Leviathan
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    Weaver Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidoh View Post
    Not to let Ala Mhigo entirely off the hook (given their well known history of belligerence), but the Ala Mhigan civil war and the atrocities committed by the King of Ruin was actually due to Garlean plotting - Gaius was the one responsible who realized attacking front on Eorzea's 'strongest and most technologically advanced' citystate was not going to end well for him, so he waited and schemed, stirring up trouble inside the city and feeding Theoduric's paranoia.
    Naming no current real-world examples because that way lies trouble and flame-wars but it's not unusual for a foreign power to exploit internal divisions in a country for its own gain. Even if Gaius was fueling the situation, everyone's lingering resentment is still very real?

    The Venn Diagram of "People who Just Put Up With Theoduric because He Was King and That's What You Do" vs "The Rebellion" pre-occupation and "People who Collaborated With the Empire" vs "The Resistance" post-occupation is probably pretty interesting.
    (1)
    Last edited by FJerome; 08-08-2017 at 07:14 PM.

  9. #49
    Player
    Belhi's Avatar
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    J'talhdi Belhi
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    Bismarck
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    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Alleo View Post
    LineageRazor: Well there is a certain "lost" prince of Ala Mhigo. And I really hope that he will play a bigger role in the main story. (Was kinda surprised to not even see him there) I also cant see Lyse as a leader of a nation and if they dont want a king anymore, then I cant see them letting one people rule alone.

    I am going to put my answer about Ishgard beyond a spoiler because its a bit off topic:



    They did not just protest...the barmaid went to us, poisoned us and after that they went onwards to stop the peace meeting from happening by fighting armed against the soldiers. They were intending to kill the others and stop peace from happening. Saying that they just wanted to be heard is really downplaying what they wanted to try. Haurchefants younger brother overreacted at that situation and ordered an attack on the speaking barmaid which was shown to be frowned upon. Yet even after all she did, the barmaid was not imprisoned for the rest of her life for the stunt she tried to pull.

    So it was not Aymerics fault that this happened and he even forgave those that survived, even though this could have been the end of all the peace talk and could have meant further ongoing war.

    The youngest heir overreacted in that situation but learned from this and matured thus why he got the job.

    Please stop painting all the others in a bad light in a situation that was truly not something harmless. These rebells wanted no peace, they did not want to live a life together with the dragons (which is kinda understandable after all they went through but does not change the results) and thus tried to go against it with weapons. If they had stood there with no weapons and only talked about this then yes them being killed would be too much. But they were ready to take other peoples lives (and might even have done so) thus they needed to be put down. The youngest Fortemp brother was overreacting but this was shown as a mistake in the game.

    So you want good people that tried their best by freeing their home nation and also tried to solve stuff without blood to be haunted by a mistake for a long time? Wow thats harsh.
    I did mention earlier but this is addressed in the MNK quests and he has no interest in the throne. His goals are to revive the Fist of Rhalgr and help rebuild the spiritual institutions the Garleans destroyed as well as creating a Fist dedicated to providing hope and protection of the Ala Mhigans. I think its unlikely we will see him in the MSQ outside maybe a cameo.

    Ala Mhigo is a very different situation to Ishgard. Ishgard, while it underwent rapid political change, had the structures in place to guide the transition. Fundimentally the governance has changed but its been adapted around the existing power structures, drawing power away from the church and giving the commoners a say. Ala Mhigo has no such unified structure to work with the Resistance is a myriad of independent groups and on top of them there are the various settlements and the independent factions like the Ananta and the Seeker tribes. That's a lot of pieces to try and build something unified out of.

    I don't think Lyse is a great leader from a thinking but she is honest, open minded, passionate and inclusive. She has a vision of a united Ala Mhigo that all can belong to. In a situation where you have so many different groups that is something extremely important. You need someone who can provide a idea and a vision that all parties can get invested in. Yeah she needs advisors but at the end of the day Ala Mhigo needs a unifying symbol as much as they need a thinker, perhaps more so.
    (5)

  10. #50
    Player
    YianKutku's Avatar
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    Miyo Mohzolhi
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    Sophia
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    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidoh View Post
    This is also the origins and reasons why the Corpse Brigade have such a bad name, they are the remnants of Theoduric's personal guard, so they're held with outright contempt by even their own countrymen and women and are thus shunned by most of the refugees in Little Ala Mhigo, leading them to become bandits and outlaws.
    There's even a bit of tension regarding the role of the Corpse Brigade now that the liberation of Ala Mhigo is in full swing. If you go back to Little Ala Mhigo before completing the SB story, Hremfing (the guy standing next to Gundobald) has a couple of lines:

    It's all well and good that the Resistance is gaining new recruits, but we could do without the help of the Corpses.

    I've not forgotten the crimes they committed in the name of the King of Ruin. Nor have any of the older generation. But these young ones, they're all too happy to let bygones be bygones...
    Apart from that, there's also the crimes and atrocities the Corpse Brigade committed while as bandits in Thanalan, often against their fellow Ala Mhigans in Little Ala Mhigo. Thanks to the time bubble, this has happened less than a year ago, which makes me wonder about the "younger generation" line.
    (7)
    Last edited by YianKutku; 08-08-2017 at 07:39 PM. Reason: 1k character limit

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