I do not have a "Main" I want to gear all jobs, change weekly gatings?

[Shurrikhan]

But you can. Nothing stopped me from queuing into Experts all throughout Creator on Warrior and White Mage. I even brought them into Savage before either was BiS. In fact, my first A9S on WHM, I didn't have any accuracy melds. You can play every job. They just aren't geared as quickly as your main(s) will be.

What does Expert roulette possibly have to do with Savage raiding? What? How? What?

Believe me, I know that you can get into most pieces of content, until a certain level of progression. I was a sub raider throughout HW, and as such I kept Bard, Ninja, Monk, and Dragoon all just high enough to be accepted into sub positions for Savage. But that is a far cry from the item levels available to somehow who can play a single job alone, and comes at far greater cost in materia. And it frequently forced me to bankrupt myself on crafter gear for an extra couple ilvl.

The point is if you place those jobs on separate characters, then they ARE gearable just as quickly as your main. If you place them, however, on the same character as the game suggests, then you cannot—you are shooting yourself in the foot. Great if it only took off your pinky toe; you still shot yourself.

So why would you make something like the ability to play all jobs on one character a selling point of a game wherein you are actually going to disadvantage exactly that?

Because the system's core intent is to keep incentivizing content. Allowing infinite progression means you will inevitably reach the point where you'll have obtained everything you fancy, thus have no further reason to queue. This is made significantly easier without restrictions and runs the risk players will spam content early on only to abandon it that much faster. To use myself as an example as I regularly play all roles.

I have NEVER said to remove gating. I said it's gating the wrong thing. The only way what you're saying would at all apply is if every savage raider felt the need to get BiS for all his jobs, thereby staying subbed longer because he can only gear one at a time.

If the goal is to prevent someone from having enough ilvl on ANY given job (meaning that one must assume he is spending everything on the same job for maximum vertical gains) to blow through content, "finish" the game, and unsub, then you need only... gate the ilvl of ANY given job, not to gate all, haphazardly, through the same shared resource pool. Allowing, say, every single gear type to take its own 450 Creator's worth of gear-exchange loot and its two raid drops per week would not make any difference whatsoever to how quickly people can gear their way through content, "finish" the game, and unsub. None. It would simply give the exact same freedom that one has if they'd put every gear type on a separate character (e.g. did this for 7 in total).

Now, I'm not saying we need to be able to clear each Savage 7 times and harvest 3150 Creator tomestones per week. I'm just saying that playing on separate characters shouldn't be so advantaged compared to playing with all jobs on one character. It makes no sense to do so.

[Snow_Princess]

What does Expert roulette possibly have to do with Savage raiding? What? How? What?

Believe me, I know that you can get into most pieces of content, until a certain level of progression. I was a sub raider throughout HW, and as such I kept Bard, Ninja, Monk, andDragoon all just high enough to be accepted into sub positions for Savage. But that is a far cry from the item levels available to somehow who can play a single job alone, and comes at far greater cost in materia. And it frequently forced me to bankrupt myself on crafter gear for an extra couple ilvl.

The point is if you place those jobs on separate characters, then they ARE gearable just as quickly as your main. If you place them, however, on the same character as the game suggests, then you cannot—you are shooting yourself in the foot. Great if it only took off your pinky toe; you still shot yourself.

So why would you make something like the ability to play all jobs on one character a selling point of a game wherein you are actually going to disadvantage exactly that?



I have NEVER said to remove gating. I said it's gating the wrong thing. The only way what you're saying would at all apply is if every savage raider felt the need to get BiS for all his jobs, thereby staying subbed longer because he can only gear one at a time.

If the goal is to prevent someone from having enough ilvl on ANY given job (meaning that one must assume he is spending everything on the same job for maximum vertical gains) to blow through content, "finish" the game, and unsub, then you need only... gate the ilvl of ANY given job, not to gate all, haphazardly, through the same shared resource pool. Allowing, say, every single gear type to take its own 450 Creator's worth of gear-exchange loot and its two raid drops per week would not make any difference whatsoever to how quickly people can gear their way through content, "finish" the game, and unsub. None. It would simply give the exact same freedom that one has if they'd put every gear type on a separate character (e.g. did this for 7 in total).

Now, I'm not saying we need to be able to clear each Savage 7 times and harvest 3150 Creator tomestones per week. I'm just saying that playing on separate characters shouldn't be so advantaged compared to playing with all jobs on one character. It makes no sense to do so.

I'm thinking of working on a gear progression model and just showing that to people, since it seems people are simply not understanding what the main point is from not liking change. Need some ideas though, you got any?

[Shurrikhan]

I'm thinking of working on a gear progression model and just showing that to people, since it seems people are simply not understanding what the main point is from not liking change. Need some ideas though, you got any?

My thoughts on it are still rather up in the air. To be honest, when I start into a large design idea, it rarely tries to achieve just the one thing I originally intended—a bad habit. For instance, what I have so far, something of a "Prestige" system, not only includes categorical allocations to gate the "any given" repository of gear while allowing equitable (not just equal or shared) gating for any other repository, but it also adjusts how gear is rewarded and what all awards progress towards it (e.g. achievements, challenge modes, and with adjustments for various forms of scaling, and so forth to spice up what essentially amounts to tome-grinding, in order to make the increased hours of grinding possible feel less grindy).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What does Expert roulette possibly have to do with Savage raiding? What? How? What?

You said:

The issue is you absolutely can't do everything on one character. To have the same freedom as in other MMOs, then like any other MMO, you must place every gear type on a separate character. It's counter-intuitive.

You never specifically mentioned Savage, thus I answered both it and regular content can be done on any job.

The point is if you place those jobs on separate characters, then they ARE gearable just as quickly as your main. If you place them, however, on the same character as the game suggests, then you cannot—you are shooting yourself in the foot. Great if it only took off your pinky toe; you still shot yourself.

So why would you make something like the ability to play all jobs on one character a selling point of a game wherein you are actually going to disadvantage exactly that?

Because they know very few people will level a second character, let alone multiple. The devs look at Savage and see you clearing it as successful. The community looks at their FFlogs. That is the disconnect here. For the dev team, if you clear content at ilvl 315, they couldn't give a damn about how well you did. The game doesn't suggest anything more than you can play every job. Nowhere does it say they all can be geared simultaneously.

snip

And by doing that, who is queuing into the 24 Man raid come 4.1? I'd argue most raiders gear at least two jobs fully. Say you have someone who tanks and alts Dragoon. With the system you purpose, they are finished gearing well before Ivalice drops. Therefore, you now have someone with no incentive to run Ivalice more than once. A separate currency for each role also benefits tanks and healers significantly more as they share gear whereas DPS are split into four categories. Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid. That means I have five days to cap on tanks, heals and whatever else I fancy-- roles that normally only receive tomestone gear later are now apart of my weekly (bi-weekly) ritual. Adding to the fact I would also be guaranteed loot from Savage each week, plus the additional pages and possibly upgrade items and I can assure you I won't only have my tanks and heals at max ilvl, they'll be full BiS in three months.

Now 4.1 rolls around and I have seven jobs fully geared; they are the only jobs I care to play. That means I have no incentive to run roulettes anymore, no incentive to keep killing Omega barring speed kills and the like and no incentive to run Ivalice. In other words, the gate is removed in all but name alone. Now imagine the queues with a system where every single player could gear their tanks, heals and at least two DPS concurrently.

The fact you can get around these limitations on a separate character is irrelevant when only hardcore raiders do it. Put simply, the devs don't care because the amount of people willing to exploit that loophole are so few, it doesn't upset their system.

[Shurrikhan]

You never specifically mentioned Savage, thus I answered both it and regular content can be done on any job.

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then. Behind after a certain point into the tier the community WILL come to leave you unless you focus your gear into a specific gear type. Yes, you can raid as whatever you like when gear is barely raised from the uncapped tome's level of gear. But that gap will increase, and item levels will become unreachable without dedicating a higher and higher cumulative portion of gear to a single gear type. You do NOT have indefinite access to Savage as an alt (unless running with friends who will accept below average ilvls). That is simple fact. Look at the item levels near the end of any given tier. They are often high enough for even mostly main-only characters to be unable to continue waiting on BiS raid drops, forcing them to spend currency to meet the requests of a PF rather than saving it for a secondary's BiS currency gear, to continue to join PFs. Without any raid drops, many PFs will assume the ilvl of all crafted slots + the entirety of your weekly-capped currency (assuming weapon or chest/legs first) have been spent on a single gear type just to join. This makes it difficult to maintain permissible gear levels for those who are taken as one type one week and another the next (i.e. static-less players who have time enough to grind for gear, but not time enough in exact consistent overlap with a specific 7 other players).

And by doing that, who is queuing into the 24 Man raid come 4.1?

(24-man raids) This is not a new issue, nor would separate caps extend it if the 24-mans actually provided benefits to everyone in the first place. Consider who among single-job players are going to do 4.1 at all when they offer inferior—not even alternatives but outright ilvl-inferior—loot to what they'd already gained last tier? They'll grab whatever twine/coats they still need and then they're done.

That issue's already come up in plenty of threads since Syrcus Tower, and the leading suggestion's been the same: give it the same ilvl as the latest weekly gear and make it upgradeable (which would affect ilvl growth rates), or make it upgradeable via capped currency in a way that essentially absorbs the difference in cost over ilvl growth (which would not).

A separate currency for each role also benefits tanks and healers significantly more as they share gear whereas DPS are split into four categories. Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid.

Which is all the more crucial when you only have the one pool of currency and raid loot to split among all of them. Damn right you're going to prefer what gives you multiple jobs in one. How, how is this possibly a unique or novel concern? That IS XIV in a nutshell. That is gear types. They are not equal to the number of roles except in "AF" weekly cap tiers. I think this has been the case long enough to recognize this fact as less than a Doomsday event. If you believe there are improvements possible to it to bring it more in line with the number of roles, I'm all ears, but this concern is entirely tangential.

Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid. That means I have five days to cap on tanks, heals and whatever else I fancy-- roles that normally only receive tomestone gear later are now apart of my weekly (bi-weekly) ritual. Adding to the fact I would also be guaranteed loot from Savage each week, plus the additional pages and possibly upgrade items and I can assure you I won't only have my tanks and heals at max ilvl, they'll be full BiS in three months.

I never said it wouldn't speed up the process of gearing alts substantially. I relish the idea. I said it wouldn't speed up the process of gearing your MAIN. What you could do for your main now, with n (number of gear types you care to gear) multiples of time you could do for the rest. Is this complicated? The basic idea is that if you could have a BiS main in 3 weeks before, with 4x the total time spent you could have 4 BiS gear types under what I'm proposing.... Assuming no additional changes, if you overcap by more over a given week than n times your daily roulette bonuses, it will be faster than that basic n multiplier. If not, then then time required would be greater than given by a simple multiplier.

Now 4.1 rolls around and I have seven jobs fully geared; they are the only jobs I care to play. That means I have no incentive to run roulettes anymore, no incentive to keep killing Omega barring speed kills and the like and no incentive to run Ivalice.

And in the meantime, you actually didn't quit after gearing a single job, waiting until post-tier farm groups to bother with alts, you participated in far more raids, and ran far, far more dungeons, while Ivalice gives later-upgradable gear alternatives to your rollover savage gear so that if you're truly fanatical about BiS across all those alts you'll be running that for n pieces of loot per week... Admittedly, perhaps I'm not thinking vividly about the queues yet, but I fail to see how that broad picture has lost anything. What fixes 24-mans for BiS single-job players also fixes it for separately capped alts.

:: My only fear in this would be that the ability to grind out so much gear would inflate gear requirements to a point where casual players would be left behind. But the thing is we're already on the brink of that even when gearing just 1-2 jobs, and that same system punishes spreading that gear around. No other MMO does that. Anywhere else, what you play (and how much thereof) is what you get. What would be so wrong with that being the case for XIV?

The fact you can get around these limitations on a separate character is irrelevant when only hardcore raiders do it. Put simply, the devs don't care because the amount of people willing to exploit that loophole are so few, it doesn't upset their system.

If the amount of people willing to take advantage of their full gearing opportunities are too few to be concerned with them, why would it suddenly be a new and rampant concern that... a few people are willing to take advantage of their full gearing opportunities, minus the 1000-character edit, so to speak? The two situations are identical, save that it's costing less data on SE's end and more convenient on our end (unless needing that extra inventory space).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then.

Uh, no I didn't. In fact, you weren't replying to me when I snagged that quote. Your post was in response to Felis, and I merely asserted your sentiment is objectively wrong. You can do everything on one character. They simply won't be geared equally. You're moving the goal post now.

Behind after a certain point into the tier the community WILL come to leave you unless you focus your gear into a specific gear type. Yes, you can raid as whatever you like when gear is barely raised from the uncapped tome's level of gear. But that gap will increase, and item levels will become unreachable without dedicating a higher and higher cumulative portion of gear to a single gear type.

They will do that regardless. If the ilvl moves to 330, PF will inevitably be set slightly higher by a portion of the community relative to the difficulty. That last portion is crucial. If Savage remained at its current difficulty level, you'll see far less parties demanding much higher than 320. Furthermore, if you join a static, you aren't going to bouncing around jobs. Very few statics allow their members to play outside their chosen role until they have everything on a consistent farm. That is solely community enforced. I signed up to play a melee DPS. While my group wouldn't have an issue if I switched to Dragoon or Monk one week, they wouldn't like if I suddenly wanted to play Black Mage no matter how geared it was. This isn't a hardcore mindset either. Statics typically prefer recruiting roles. So unless you have someone who is equally willing to switch-- to melee in my case-- you'll be playing the role you committed when you joined.

By the time 320 PFs become more ubiquitous, 4.1 will be close by or already released and everyone then has access to 330 gear. Granted, another option, be it relic armour or some such, would be a welcomed addition.

24-man raids) This is not a new issue, nor would separate caps extend it if the 24-mans actually provided benefits to everyone in the first place. Consider who among single-job players are going to do 4.1 at all when they offer inferior—not even alternatives but outright ilvl-inferior—loot to what they'd already gained last tier? They'll grab whatever twine/coats they still need and then they're done.

That issue's already come up in plenty of threads since Syrcus Tower, and the leading suggestion's been the same: give it the same ilvl as the latest weekly gear and make it upgradeable (which would affect ilvl growth rates), or make it upgradeable via capped currency in a way that essentially absorbs the difference in cost over ilvl growth (which would not).

Of course they are. The devs want raiders queuing into Ivalice as much as everyone else. The majority will because they use 4.1 to further gear alt jobs. I have seen world prog raiders in Weeping City and Dun Scaith on multiple occasions. It all depends on how many jobs each person is willing to gear. Were tomestone restrictions removed or split individually between each role, they will already have everything. Using myself as an example, I'll have Samurai and Dragoon done before 4.1 drops and will probably collect drops for my other jobs along the way. Seeing how much I actually need from Savage for Samurai, my tomes will probably be diverted to another job pretty quickly. When Ivalice releases, I'll want the gear drops from it to upgrade. Per your scenario, I will have absolutely no use for anything from Ivalice. My tanks and healers will already have full Creation gear. Why would I care about Ivalice?

They already do this through guaranteed tokens each week, allowing you to upgrade the relevant tomestone gear to its Savage equivalent. At best, people would now only run Ivalice once a week for that upgrade since the gear is worthless. Isn't that precisely where we are now: capping Creation and having "nothing else to do"? The RNG token system is another way the devs keep people running 24-mans. Removing that means less and less people will queue.

Which is all the more crucial when you only have the one pool of currency and raid loot to split among all of them. Damn right you're going to prefer what gives you multiple jobs in one. How, how is this possibly a unique or novel concern? That IS XIV in a nutshell. That is gear types. They are not equal to the number of roles except in "AF" weekly cap tiers. I think this has been the case long enough to recognize this fact as less than a Doomsday event. If you believe there are improvements possible to it to bring it more in line with the number of roles, I'm all ears, but this concern is entirely tangential.

And your proposal is to make it easier for tanks and healers to fully gear their respectively jobs well before Ivalice releases, thus giving them no reason to queue for it. How is this a solution? You subsequently mention relishing the idea, but how do you incentivize content? How do you get the tanks and healers, who no longer have any reason to queue into Ivalice more than once a week, to keep doing it? That is the problem with role currency. Just doing roulettes will guarantee two roles are fully geared in Creation before Ivalice even releases. People aren't going to do it if they aren't getting anything out of it, especially when players aren't very good in this game. The whole reason cracked clusters were added to Leveling Roulette is because SE needs people to continuously spam them so people aren't waiting 30+ minutes.

Is this complicated?
The basic idea is that if you could have a BiS main in 3 weeks before, with 4x the total time spent you could have 4 BiS gear types under what I'm proposing.... Assuming no additional changes, if you overcap by more over a given week than n times your daily roulette bonuses, it will be faster than that basic n multiplier. If not, then then time required would be greater than given by a simple multiplier.

Evidently, it is. How wouldn't it speed up my main if you guaranteed Savage drops per player each week? That means all eight of you will have gear fall into your inventory. It may not be consistently what you want, however the RNG drastically improves since you'll never go a week without getting something unless you already have it. This makes the aforementioned issues with Ivalice even worse. Fourteen weeks, with two drops per person means raiders have twenty eight chances of 340 gear for various jobs, including their preferred ones. Sure, you'll see plenty of repeats, thus gear hits the floor, but unless RNG utterly hates you, this puts a massive dent on raiders' willingness to run Ivalice or roulettes because they have better gear for even their alts.

Right. Let's unravel that a little bit. Say you main Dark Knight, but also like healers and casters. Under what you proposed, you'll have near full BiS for the following:

Dark Knight, Warrior, Paladin, White Mage, Astro, Scholar, Red Mage, Black Mage, Summoner and still could gear Monk and Samurai. Out of fifteen jobs, you'll potentially have everything you want on eleven of them. And 4.1 wouldn't have even released yet. Please, explain how this wouldn't destroy queue times? Better yet, how do you incentivize Omega Normal and Crafted gear, both of which are inferior due to cost and time efficiency (i.e., it is far more efficient to spam Ala Mhigo and purchase the better Creation gear than run Omega and obtain 320)?

And in the meantime, you actually didn't quit after gearing a single job, waiting until post-tier farm groups to bother with alts, you participated in far more raids, and ran far, far more dungeons, while Ivalice gives later-upgradable gear alternatives to your rollover savage gear so that if you're truly fanatical about BiS across all those alts you'll be running that for n pieces of loot per week... Admittedly, perhaps I'm not thinking vividly about the queues yet, but I fail to see how that broad picture has lost anything. What fixes 24-mans for BiS single-job players also fixes it for separately capped alts.

:: My only fear in this would be that the ability to grind out so much gear would inflate gear requirements to a point where casual players would be left behind. But the thing is we're already on the brink of that even when gearing just 1-2 jobs, and that same system punishes spreading that gear around. No other MMO does that. Anywhere else, what you play (and how much thereof) is what you get. What would be so wrong with that being the case for XIV?

Because the gear was relevant. 260 was an upgrade on a number of jobs since I focused on Dragoon. I stopped even looking at roulettes for months leading up to Stormblood because I had 270 on everything I cared about. I only touched the Void Ark series when friends asked me to. And I only ran it multiple times in one week when the gear was better than what I had. Afterwards? Once and only once, if that. In fact, the only reason I bothered with roulettes again later was when I decided to make another Anima. Your scenario makes the Ivalice equivalent gear obsolete. I would already have 330 Creation or 340 Omega. Therefore, I wouldn't touch Ivalice more than a handful of times just to see what it's like. I also craft, roleplay and do other things. I may have remained subbed but I wasn't spamming content after obtainimg everything I fancied. I am also an outliner in that respective. Not many want to make multiple Animas or farm PotD weapons for giggles.

Unfortunately, I very much suspect that fear would be well founded. If Creation is spammable, that makes it far more likely people restrict PFs to 330, thus forcing player to farm Creation if they want to participate while making crafted and Omega normal drops worthless. We've already been over the impact it would have on Ivalice. So... you asked what I might do for improvements? Honestly, I want to see what Eureka brings. Relic armour has potential as an alternative gear method that wouldn't be too fast but allow people to focus on something throughout the week. There also needs to be more content in general. And less of the faceroll variety. Another possibility is Mythic+. At least as a concept. I wouldn't want it identical to WoW, but I do like the precise of something harder we work towards.

[Shurrikhan]

Uh, no I didn't. In fact, you weren't replying to me when I snagged that quote. Your post was in response to Felis, and I merely asserted your sentiment is objectively wrong. You can do everything on one character. They simply won't be geared equally. You're moving the goal post now.

Any roles/jobs/classes/gear types other than your primary... are alts. The term is not solely applied to separate characters. Yet by placing them on one character in this game, each is allotted fewer opportunities. In other words, the game forces you, if you want optimal gearing, to put each gear type on a separate character, despite holding the selling point of all in one.

The issue is you absolutely can't do everything on one character. To have the same freedom as in other MMOs, then like any other MMO, you must place every gear type on a separate character. It's counter-intuitive.

But you can. Nothing stopped me from queuing into Experts all throughout Creator on Warrior and White Mage. I even brought them into Savage before either was BiS.

(Here's where I wonder how being merely able to bring a job into some floor of Savage, short of the BiS that Savage is required for, and what Expert roulette has to do with that.)

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then. You do NOT have indefinite access to Savage as an alt (unless running with friends who will accept below average ilvls).

1. No, I have not moved the goal post. Apparently I've used a different definition of "doing everything". To me that includes reaching BiS in a given tier, and being able to participate in ALL content, regardless of its typical community-driven ilvl requirements. You seem to be using it in a sense of being able to participate to some degree in all forms of content. From the way I was looking at it, you use of the absolute to be blantantly overselling what is possible across alts belonging to the same character, to a point of factual error. I hadn't thought of the term in a softer sense.

They will do that regardless. If the ilvl moves to 330, PF will inevitably be set slightly higher by a portion of the community relative to the difficulty. That last portion is crucial. If Savage remained at its current difficulty level, you'll see far less parties demanding much higher than 320. Furthermore, if you join a static, you aren't going to bouncing around jobs. Very few statics allow their members to play outside their chosen role until they have everything on a consistent farm. That is solely community enforced. I signed up to play a melee DPS. While my group wouldn't have an issue if I switched to Dragoon or Monk one week, they wouldn't like if I suddenly wanted to play Black Mage no matter how geared it was. This isn't a hardcore mindset either. Statics typically prefer recruiting roles. So unless you have someone who is equally willing to switch-- to melee in my case-- you'll be playing the role you committed when you joined.

By the time 320 PFs become more ubiquitous, 4.1 will be close by or already released and everyone then has access to 330 gear. Granted, another option, be it relic armour or some such, would be a welcomed addition.

2. The information on static play is irrelevant. Chances are if you're gearing multiple jobs in order to access content (e.g. to increase the possibility of being able to sub for a group), you're not in one, and probably cannot join one—not because you lack the time to raid at all, but because your schedule is inconsistent. Yet your chances go from increased to next to null by doing so as the tier progresses, simply due to the naturally increasing ilvl expectations. Though you can fill more slots, your gear levels are growing slower than anyone else, because there is no reward for the additional time spent, even where it would NOT accelerate vertical progression.

Moreover what does the preference of your static have to do with what you would like to do, likely with any number of other players, given more time and accessibility (such as right now by simply playing two characters)?

How wouldn't it speed up my main if you guaranteed Savage drops per player each week?

(?) I have never said to guarantee Savage drops per player each week. Is this an iteration of what I've mentioned that you're extrapolated into this result? Or are you thinking of another poster? I really can't speak on their behalf.

This makes the aforementioned issues with Ivalice even worse.

While I can't speak to the supposed rates or guarantees of raid loot acquisition, since what you're assuming to be my idea is either not mine or mis-extrapolated, I did just say that should alts on the same character be given the same degree of gearing freedom as alts on separate characters, catch-up loot semi-tiers ought then to stand as alternatives to the former tier's BiS line-up. Short of that you're also going to continue to run into the issues of single-gear-type players already in BiS having zero use for the 24-man content. Thereby it acts as a catch-up mechanic not just for those who play more than one gear type, but for those with less time. The risk: you now have more choices at a given ilvl. The horror.

Right. Let's unravel that a little bit. Say you main Dark Knight, but also like healers and casters. Under what you proposed, you'll have near full BiS for the following:

Dark Knight, Warrior, Paladin, White Mage, Astro, Scholar, Red Mage, Black Mage, Summoner and still could gear Monk and Samurai. Out of fifteen jobs, you'll potentially have everything you want on eleven of them. And 4.1 wouldn't have even released yet. Please, explain how this wouldn't destroy queue times? Better yet, how do you incentivize Omega Normal and Crafted gear, both of which are inferior due to cost and time efficiency (i.e., it is far more efficient to spam Ala Mhigo and purchase the better Creation gear than run Omega and obtain 320)?

Right. Let's "unravel" this:

Yes, four gear types encompasses anywhere from 6 to 11 jobs.... Is there a paradox I'm missing?...
And you can take 4x the time to do that across 4 characters, covering 6 to 11 jobs at full gearing potential... right now. You just can't do it on one character. So why the fear-mongering over the possibility of XIV's one unique convenience no longer being a detriment? That is the only change I'm suggesting. People won't suddenly sprout additional hands and unemployment checks and botting tools by which to grind Creation tomes across every gear type any more than anyone can currently do so by using separate characters (and with the addition of as many daily roulettes bonuses as they have characters, and therefore gear types, whereas the others get it only for the first gear type allotted towards). (Continued below.)

Because the gear was relevant. 260 was an upgrade on a number of jobs since I focused on Dragoon, Ninja and Dark Knight. I stopped even looking at roulettes for months leading up to Stormblood because I had 270 on everything I cared about. I only touched the Void Ark series when friends asked me to. And I only ran it multiple times in one week when the gear was better than what I had. Afterwards? Once and only once, if that.

Wait... so you're fighting me on the idea that 24-man loot ought to be worthwhile even for raiders (whereas it is currently a catch up mechanic for altaholics and returnees, generally ignored by BiS raiders) because... why?
Let's review this.

• I said that players should have as much freedom to gear up gear types on one character as across multiple. No more, no less. I've never said anything about guaranteeing drops. I've never said anything about gearing by-job. I believe I have been very clear in this respect.
• I haven't miraculously given players more time to play the game, or thereby pursue those goals on one character than across multiple at this time.
• I haven't suddenly made people any more or less altaholic.
• I've said that for this to work, catch-up loot like that of 24-mans (or by extension normal-mode raids) would have to be a legitimate alternatives, not just a stop-over measure meant to be replaced. That and that alone accelerates gearing across x weeks from the release of a casual raid.

The effects, then, would occur only for those players who would be able to gear up all alts they cared about to BiS over the course of a tier in the present system. Like yourself. They and they alone would now "finish" the tier sooner, since the time spent gearing their alts could be done over a shorter span of time, similarly to if they had done so on separate characters, but with 525 fewer inventory slots per additional gear type placed on the same character. Inversely, they would also have a potential reason, depending on itemization, to do casual raids that would otherwise be beneath them.

Unfortunately, I very much suspect that fear would be well founded. If Creation is spammable, that makes it far more likely people restrict PFs to 330, thus forcing people to farm Creation if they want to participate while making crafted and Omega normal drops worthless. We've already been over the impact it would have on Ivalice.

But there has been no change to the rate at which Creation is spammable. No change. None. It's 450 per week (per gear type, but without having to be "per character"). Same as ever. Again, I have never said to remove the cap. This would only be an issue if PFs were already assuming that "hey, maybe someone wants to play on another job they haven't had the opportunity to gear up yet due to weekly caps." But they don't. PFs already assume that the majority of people will be placing that gear on a single dedicated gear type. Not a role, not a job—a gear type, however broadly it may apply. And why shouldn't they? If your time is spent across more than a single receptacle for its rewards, you're wasting time insofar as vertical progression. I am simply asking for the same freedom to waste my time or play what I want to the fullest extent given sufficient time that I can enjoy in any other MMO, across all jobs (gear types) available, even if I decide to use the unique feature of XIV.

So... you asked what I might do for improvements? Honestly, I want to see what Eureka brings. Relic armour has potential as an alternative gear method that wouldn't be too fast but allow people to focus on something throughout the week. There also needs to be more content in general. And less of the faceroll variety. Another possibility is Mythic+. At least as a concept. I wouldn't want it identical to WoW, but I do like the precise of something harder we work towards.

Yeah, I'm hoping we'll see something to throw some new ideas into the work with Eureka. Not expecting, but definitely hoping. Relic armor's been an idea that some people here have been able to make attractive to me, and I look forward to seeing its possibilities expounded upon. In fact, I think for a system that embraces the freedom of gearing within one character that I'm hoping for to really click, something like this will probably be necessary. Absolutely agreed that I'd like to see less faceroll reskins given to us as "content". Something akin to Mythic+ I think could be a hugely time-efficient development for the game. Blizzard has had its share of less efficient developments, but they far and way more efficient on average than what we've seen here in Diadem, or the infamous LoV, be it via Mythic+, the Artifact Power system and how it interacts more consistently with their version of FATEs and virtually any content, Warsong Gultch, Arathi Basin, Alterac Valley, Timewalker dungeons... There's a lot of good example work on what can both be exciting when new AND last due to more than just short-term, arbitrary-count needs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

1. No, I have not moved the goal post. Apparently I've used a different definition of "doing everything". To me that includes reaching BiS in a given tier, and being able to participate in ALL content, regardless of its typical community-driven ilvl requirements. You seem to be using it in a sense of being able to participate to some degree in all forms of content. From the way I was looking at it, you use of the absolute to be blantantly overselling what is possible across alts belonging to the same character, to a point of factual error. I hadn't thought of the term in a softer sense.

I haven't oversold anything. You can do all content on every job. If PFs start restricting beyond your present ilvl level on your preferred job, what prevents you from making your own PF? Does the game encourage focusing on a particular role? Absolutely. The game, however, does not prevent you from playing alt jobs. That is the distinction I wanted to make. Perhaps it could have been made clearer.

I have never said to guarantee Savage drops per player each week. Is this an iteration of what I've mentioned that you're extrapolated into this result? Or are you thinking of another poster? I really can't speak on their behalf.

It may have been Princess come to think of it. My apologizes if it were and I fused your stance and hers.

I did just say that should alts on the same character be given the same degree of gearing freedom as alts on separate characters, casual loot tiers ought then to stand as alternatives to the former tier's BiS line-up. Short of that you're also going to continue to run into the issues of single-gear-type players already in BiS having zero use for the 24-man content. Thereby it acts as a catch-up mechanic not just for those who play more than one gear type, but for those with less time. The risk: you now have more choices at a given ilvl. The horror.

The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

I've said that for this to work, catch-up loot like that of 24-mans (or by extension normal-mode raids) would have to be a legitimate alternatives, not just a stop-over measure meant to be replaced. That and that alone accelerates gearing across x weeks from the release of a casual raid.

How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

But there has been no change to the rate at which Creation is spammable. No change. None. It's 450 per week (per gear type, but without having to be "per character"). Same as ever. Again, I have never said to remove the cap. This would only be an issue if PFs were already assuming that "hey, maybe someone wants to play on another job they haven't had the opportunity to gear up yet due to weekly caps." But they don't. PFs already assume that the majority of people will be placing that gear on a single dedicated gear type. Not a role, not a job—a gear type, however broadly it may apply. And why shouldn't they? If your time is spent across more than a single receptacle for its rewards, you're wasting time insofar as vertical progression. I am simply asking for the same freedom to waste my time or play what I want to the fullest extent given sufficient time that I can enjoy in any other MMO, across all jobs (gear types) available, even if I decide to use the unique feature of XIV.

That makes it spammable, albeit indirectly. Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished. As for PFs. People who set ilvls that high, do so because they want to exclude players. They aren't going to be courtesy and assume you may want to play something else. They'll want you on your main. People who keep it more averaged out or don't set one at all would also take you right now at 315-320. And will continue to do so months later. A12S PFs typically stayed around 260 once 3.5 released, which was easily obtainable for even casual players.

Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community. It's baffling just how many people don't even check the lodestone, let alone post on the forums. I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

[Shurrikhan]

The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

Fair enough. Granted that MSQ grants experience across its entirety, enough even to outperform the armory bonus after 61. It's probably the disgust of listening to the shit more than once, and regathering all one's aether currents, etc., more than the actual time spent. Which... doesn't bode well.

I'd likely still have 3 characters going if not for one simple thing: I don't like the other two as much, character-wise, as I used to. I like this one. I want to just play this one. And so there went the ability to fully gear 3 gear sets at once. Which then becomes 6 and eventually all 7 with time over a given tier, before resetting. Now I get the one, which I have to split over the largest roles (MNK/SAM only because I didn't want to play casters or ranged this time, and tanks and healers).

Again, though, even if that accessibility and just the fact that people have at this point been sort of habit-trapped into all-in-one characters by this point would open up massive potential for quick but finite grinding, I still don't think that fear warrants the limitations we face now for having placed all jobs on one character. Maybe there's an ideal balance point. But I'd rather caution towards consistency in concept, cutting out that design hypocrisy, than being consistent to the formula thus far.

Either way this isn't likely to happen with the system currently set in place. Just imagine how clunky that would look, with Creation Tomes of Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Aiming, Fending, Healing, and Casting. It would look horrendous. No, this would have to be design philosophy of something new, that can make it work so people don't feel any more like they have to grind away at tomestones, tombstones, or whatever any more than they do not—hopefully less. They should feel more encouraged and able to play the game how they want and for want of just playing the game. I just really think that when we move towards that system, alt-friendliness shouldn't be limited to multi-character setups.

How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

A BiS alternative would have to be 340, competing with the augmented and Savage gear. And ideally, you'd want it to be upgradable with the next introduction of currency to whatever the new weekly cap gear would be. I'm sorry, I totally lost track of where I had gone into which details. That is totally on me. I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should not have assumed that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis. (former typo)

Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished.

Yes, to be an alternative, it would have to be a sidegrade for the highest ilvls thus far, and ideally a side-option for beginning the next tier. That means a buff to casual raid gear. That's what I meant by it being an increase to gearing rates, but I totally left out the actual numbers and... all that is important.

(Likewise if you wanted Omega normal to keep being run after its served its purpose as step-stone gear, that gear too would need to be improvable to Creation levels, and/or creation tome farming for alts just a side-effect of grabbing that intermittent gear—i.e. it would have to be a damn good way to get Creation, and it actually probably would deserve guaranteed loot at about the time the cap is removed (often counterintuitively increasing the time it takes to get anything from any turn unless really lucky in one's rolls).

Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community.

Yeah, that's gotta be it. It just feels immensely hypocritical and counter-intuitive to me. in other words, it hits me right in the trigger button. And I know a lot admittedly small enough group of people to be wholly susceptible to sampling bias of people who have felt the same.

I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

I unsubbed a few days back. The rationale options, as far as I can recall, were alike to "I don't enjoy playing anymore," "I don't have anyone to play with," "I don't have the time to play," and a couple other standard-fare ones.

Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keeping a larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

It's literally just the inconsistency there that gets me on principle. Its really a fairly separate issue for me, as passionate as I get about it. Ideally, there are a lot of ways I'd like to see small changes have significant effects to the game. I'd like to see a greater sense of consistent planning—something less tiered, more continuous—for progression, for catch-up mechanics, for alt-gearing, for example. But a lot of the fundamentals are more or less fine, apart from the very basic issue of the primary spenders of our game-time (e.g. Expert dungeons) aren't particularly fun in themselves, while we could be having a lot of fun even just meeting the basic everyday efforts of the game—it just feels like the carrot-and-stick is presumed sufficient, which may be symptomatic of the biggest problem I see with general design. 'Virtual' content. And not the best disguised, accessible, or reiterative form at that. I mean, WoW can often give us the exact same instance in a way that feels more exciting across two iterations (challenge levels) than two entirely separate Expert dungeons may feel here.

Well I guess I am not shocked you missed replying to this your reply to the quoted is after I said this, however I have a big issue with the argument of "give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers)"

I do mean "more" here in solely a comparative, not resultative, sense. It does not account for access to omnicrafters, to money, or to time. But it does at least prevent people from feeling obliged to grind ceaselessly just to be the best they can be before they even step foot in the place. You so obviously can't get out of the learning process by pre-grinding it that you won't try (save insofar as grabbing your tome gear first if it's a spending week). And therefore you don't burn yourself out as badly just setting up for it.