I do not have a "Main" I want to gear all jobs, change weekly gatings?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

1. No, I have not moved the goal post. Apparently I've used a different definition of "doing everything". To me that includes reaching BiS in a given tier, and being able to participate in ALL content, regardless of its typical community-driven ilvl requirements. You seem to be using it in a sense of being able to participate to some degree in all forms of content. From the way I was looking at it, you use of the absolute to be blantantly overselling what is possible across alts belonging to the same character, to a point of factual error. I hadn't thought of the term in a softer sense.

I haven't oversold anything. You can do all content on every job. If PFs start restricting beyond your present ilvl level on your preferred job, what prevents you from making your own PF? Does the game encourage focusing on a particular role? Absolutely. The game, however, does not prevent you from playing alt jobs. That is the distinction I wanted to make. Perhaps it could have been made clearer.

I have never said to guarantee Savage drops per player each week. Is this an iteration of what I've mentioned that you're extrapolated into this result? Or are you thinking of another poster? I really can't speak on their behalf.

It may have been Princess come to think of it. My apologizes if it were and I fused your stance and hers.

I did just say that should alts on the same character be given the same degree of gearing freedom as alts on separate characters, casual loot tiers ought then to stand as alternatives to the former tier's BiS line-up. Short of that you're also going to continue to run into the issues of single-gear-type players already in BiS having zero use for the 24-man content. Thereby it acts as a catch-up mechanic not just for those who play more than one gear type, but for those with less time. The risk: you now have more choices at a given ilvl. The horror.

The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

I've said that for this to work, catch-up loot like that of 24-mans (or by extension normal-mode raids) would have to be a legitimate alternatives, not just a stop-over measure meant to be replaced. That and that alone accelerates gearing across x weeks from the release of a casual raid.

How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

But there has been no change to the rate at which Creation is spammable. No change. None. It's 450 per week (per gear type, but without having to be "per character"). Same as ever. Again, I have never said to remove the cap. This would only be an issue if PFs were already assuming that "hey, maybe someone wants to play on another job they haven't had the opportunity to gear up yet due to weekly caps." But they don't. PFs already assume that the majority of people will be placing that gear on a single dedicated gear type. Not a role, not a job—a gear type, however broadly it may apply. And why shouldn't they? If your time is spent across more than a single receptacle for its rewards, you're wasting time insofar as vertical progression. I am simply asking for the same freedom to waste my time or play what I want to the fullest extent given sufficient time that I can enjoy in any other MMO, across all jobs (gear types) available, even if I decide to use the unique feature of XIV.

That makes it spammable, albeit indirectly. Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished. As for PFs. People who set ilvls that high, do so because they want to exclude players. They aren't going to be courtesy and assume you may want to play something else. They'll want you on your main. People who keep it more averaged out or don't set one at all would also take you right now at 315-320. And will continue to do so months later. A12S PFs typically stayed around 260 once 3.5 released, which was easily obtainable for even casual players.

Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community. It's baffling just how many people don't even check the lodestone, let alone post on the forums. I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

[Shurrikhan]

The average player doesn't have multiple characters for raiding. Yes, you can exploit this loophole, but only a small minority do. For a comparison example, when people mentioned retainer and inventory space, Yoshida specifically stated the vast majority only use two retainers, which is why they didn't prioritize it for such a long time. Granted, there is a cost involved, however the point remains. If few people exploit the loophole, whether due to laziness, money or contentment, it's existence is irrelevant. So why would people grind on a single character if they won't level a separate? Accessibility. They don't have to slog through the lengthily MSQ and remind themselves to log into it consistently. You aren't wrong in the sense they could... but they haven't. On the other hand, people were grinding Verity week one.

Fair enough. Granted that MSQ grants experience across its entirety, enough even to outperform the armory bonus after 61. It's probably the disgust of listening to the shit more than once, and regathering all one's aether currents, etc., more than the actual time spent. Which... doesn't bode well.

I'd likely still have 3 characters going if not for one simple thing: I don't like the other two as much, character-wise, as I used to. I like this one. I want to just play this one. And so there went the ability to fully gear 3 gear sets at once. Which then becomes 6 and eventually all 7 with time over a given tier, before resetting. Now I get the one, which I have to split over the largest roles (MNK/SAM only because I didn't want to play casters or ranged this time, and tanks and healers).

Again, though, even if that accessibility and just the fact that people have at this point been sort of habit-trapped into all-in-one characters by this point would open up massive potential for quick but finite grinding, I still don't think that fear warrants the limitations we face now for having placed all jobs on one character. Maybe there's an ideal balance point. But I'd rather caution towards consistency in concept, cutting out that design hypocrisy, than being consistent to the formula thus far.

Either way this isn't likely to happen with the system currently set in place. Just imagine how clunky that would look, with Creation Tomes of Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Aiming, Fending, Healing, and Casting. It would look horrendous. No, this would have to be design philosophy of something new, that can make it work so people don't feel any more like they have to grind away at tomestones, tombstones, or whatever any more than they do not—hopefully less. They should feel more encouraged and able to play the game how they want and for want of just playing the game. I just really think that when we move towards that system, alt-friendliness shouldn't be limited to multi-character setups.

How is it an alternative when it's the same ilvl everyone has already been grinding for nearly four months? You acknowledge upwards of eleven jobs could be fully geared before 4.1 releases, yes? They would be ilvl 330, the same ilvl Ivalice will drop. Therefore, it's no longer an alternative because everyone will already have said ilvl. Instead, people only run it for the tomestone upgrade not the loot.

A BiS alternative would have to be 340, competing with the augmented and Savage gear. And ideally, you'd want it to be upgradable with the next introduction of currency to whatever the new weekly cap gear would be. I'm sorry, I totally lost track of where I had gone into which details. That is totally on me. I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should not have assumed that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis. (former typo)

Currently, I have to continuously run dungeons if I want Cassandra to have full tomestone gear on multiple jobs. I'll continue to do this well into 4.1 unless I level a separate character. As I haven't and probably won't, at least not for a long while, I'll queue into content consistently enough. With your proposal, I wouldn't since by 4.1, I'll have all the jobs I care about finished.

Yes, to be an alternative, it would have to be a sidegrade for the highest ilvls thus far, and ideally a side-option for beginning the next tier. That means a buff to casual raid gear. That's what I meant by it being an increase to gearing rates, but I totally left out the actual numbers and... all that is important.

(Likewise if you wanted Omega normal to keep being run after its served its purpose as step-stone gear, that gear too would need to be improvable to Creation levels, and/or creation tome farming for alts just a side-effect of grabbing that intermittent gear—i.e. it would have to be a damn good way to get Creation, and it actually probably would deserve guaranteed loot at about the time the cap is removed (often counterintuitively increasing the time it takes to get anything from any turn unless really lucky in one's rolls).

Basically, my perspective on the whole issue is the devs haven't made any adjustments because not enough people have either exploited their restrictions or they don't have an issue with them. Keep in mind, forums make up a very small portion of any game's community.

Yeah, that's gotta be it. It just feels immensely hypocritical and counter-intuitive to me. in other words, it hits me right in the trigger button. And I know a lot admittedly small enough group of people to be wholly susceptible to sampling bias of people who have felt the same.

I'll admit though, there should be some sort of poll or questionnaire given to players who unsub. That might help give the devs ideas if certain systems aren't working.

I unsubbed a few days back. The rationale options, as far as I can recall, were alike to "I don't enjoy playing anymore," "I don't have anyone to play with," "I don't have the time to play," and a couple other standard-fare ones.

Regardless, my defense of the system doesn't mean I like it. Frankly, I'm indifferent. I haven't had problems joining PFs or obtaining enough gear on Cassie for it to ever present an issue. That being said, I won't argue it doesn't get repetitive.

In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keeping a larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

It's literally just the inconsistency there that gets me on principle. Its really a fairly separate issue for me, as passionate as I get about it. Ideally, there are a lot of ways I'd like to see small changes have significant effects to the game. I'd like to see a greater sense of consistent planning—something less tiered, more continuous—for progression, for catch-up mechanics, for alt-gearing, for example. But a lot of the fundamentals are more or less fine, apart from the very basic issue of the primary spenders of our game-time (e.g. Expert dungeons) aren't particularly fun in themselves, while we could be having a lot of fun even just meeting the basic everyday efforts of the game—it just feels like the carrot-and-stick is presumed sufficient, which may be symptomatic of the biggest problem I see with general design. 'Virtual' content. And not the best disguised, accessible, or reiterative form at that. I mean, WoW can often give us the exact same instance in a way that feels more exciting across two iterations (challenge levels) than two entirely separate Expert dungeons may feel here.

Well I guess I am not shocked you missed replying to this your reply to the quoted is after I said this, however I have a big issue with the argument of "give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers)"

I do mean "more" here in solely a comparative, not resultative, sense. It does not account for access to omnicrafters, to money, or to time. But it does at least prevent people from feeling obliged to grind ceaselessly just to be the best they can be before they even step foot in the place. You so obviously can't get out of the learning process by pre-grinding it that you won't try (save insofar as grabbing your tome gear first if it's a spending week). And therefore you don't burn yourself out as badly just setting up for it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Fair enough. Granted that MSQ grants experience across its entirety, enough even to outperform the armory bonus after 61. It's probably the disgust of listening to the shit more than once, and regathering all one's aether currents, etc., more than the actual time spent. Which... doesn't bode well.

I'd likely still have 3 characters going if not for one simple thing: I don't like the other two as much, character-wise, as I used to. I like this one. I want to just play this one. And so there went the ability to fully gear 3 gear sets at once. Which then becomes 6 and eventually all 7 with time over a given tier, before resetting. Now I get the one, which I have to split over the largest roles (MNK/SAM only because I didn't want to play casters or ranged this time, and tanks and healers).

I am much the same way. I snuck alts onto Balmung ages ago with the full intent of leveling them to dodge Specialists and to possibly pug on another character without screwing my static. Alas, I have yet to get around to it mostly because I have an attachment to Cassandra, both in a game sense and because I recreate her nearly every game I play where I have the option to create a female character. Perhaps I am too pessimistic on the idea, but given the examples we've already seen with Light farming, Verity and etc. I just don't see people capping every week only to complain later there isn't anymore content. Which is why I feel the bigger issue is content itself. There needs to be more variety. Speaking on that subject...

Either way this isn't likely to happen with the system currently set in place. Just imagine how clunky that would look, with Creation Tomes of Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Aiming, Fending, Healing, and Casting. It would look horrendous. No, this would have to be design philosophy of something new, that can make it work so people don't feel any more like they have to grind away at tomestones, tombstones, or whatever any more than they do not—hopefully less. They should feel more encouraged and able to play the game how they want and for want of just playing the game. I just really think that when we move towards that system, alt-friendliness shouldn't be limited to multi-character setups.

If they were to ever branch out gear progression this way, I suspect tomestones would be abolished and gear would be funneled into different content. Something like how Diadem was supposed to be another alternative. Another possibility could be allowing us to choose the stats and that being our progression instead of an ilvl. I'm less inclined to believe they would be open to that though, if only because secondaries are weighed nearly as highly in XIV as other games. Perhaps some way to upgrade crafted gear might be something they add. At least in this scenario.

A BiS alternative would have to be 340, competing with the augmented and Savage gear. And ideally, you'd want it to be upgradable with the next introduction of currency to whatever the new weekly cap gear would be. I'm sorry, I totally lost track of where I had gone into which details. That is totally on me. I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should assume that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis.

I thought this might be the case after posting, and it wouldn't change much. Although, it does step on Savage a little bit since you would have two 340 pieces; a drop and the token upgrade. Either way, you're fine. We both probably were caught up in the moment at some point.

Yeah, that's gotta be it. It just feels immensely hypocritical and counter-intuitive to me. in other words, it hits me right in the trigger button. And I know a lot admittedly small enough group of people to be wholly susceptible to sampling bias of people who have felt the same.

In some ways, it is. But until it stops working for them, they really have little incentive to change. This is where I think variation would help-- which may come within the next few patch cycles. The way I see 4.0 is the devs relying a bit too heavily on the idea job changes would force people to relearn everything when most picked up their jobs within much fuss. If there is one thing they are horribly guilty of, it's always taking the absolute safest route possible.

In truth, I'm the same way. For instance, I appreciate gating in that I'm not expected, therefore, to put in as many mindnumbing hours. People often think it holds us back, but all it really does imo is give a more level playing field from week to week for competitive players (progression players and record-breakers), and reduced the portion of our time spent in preparation for the things we play more for their inherent enjoyment (such as raiding, comparatively speaking, and varying from person to person), all while keeping a larger portion of the population useful to you. Those are all really good things...

It's literally just the inconsistency there that gets me on principle. Its really a fairly separate issue for me, as passionate as I get about it. Ideally, there are a lot of ways I'd like to see small changes have significant effects to the game. I'd like to see a greater sense of consistent planning—something less tiered, more continuous—for progression, for catch-up mechanics, for alt-gearing, for example. But a lot of the fundamentals are more or less fine, apart from the very basic issue of the primary spenders of our game-time (e.g. Expert dungeons) aren't particularly fun in themselves, while we could be having a lot of fun even just meeting the basic everyday efforts of the game—it just feels like the carrot-and-stick is presumed sufficient, which may be symptomatic of the biggest problem I see with general design. 'Virtual' content. And not the best disguised, accessible, or reiterative form at that. I mean, WoW can often give us the exact same instance in a way that feels more exciting across two iterations (challenge levels) than two entirely separate Expert dungeons may feel here.

That's fair perspective, honestly. As noted above, they do approach things far too safe. On the one hand, people argue the skill level is low, thus they can't make harder or more engaging content. My rebuttal has always been it's because you can coast through so much that skill gap exists. Take dungeons, for example. While I like most of those released in Stormblood (Template of the Fist can sod right off though), what I found engaging is healing through Bardam's Mettle with all Shire gear. The fact I had to make so many adjustments instead of the typical Holy spam made it a far better experience that I wish you got more consistently once you reached 70. This is where I feel WoW does a much better job with re-imagining its content. Unfortunately, it's hard to incentivize running a harder difficulty, though that could be where an alternative gear method comes into play. Like you said, the fundamentals are all there and the foundation is solid. They could just do with expanding it more with or without tomestones.

[Shurrikhan]

I've been jumping down your throat so at least I should assume that my "alternative" would be entrusted mutatis mutandis.

Should have read "I've been jumping down your throat far too much to assume that my alternative would be entrusted mutatis mutandis." My typos creating yet more confusion....

That's fair perspective, honestly. As noted above, they do approach things far too safe. On the one hand, people argue the skill level is low, thus they can't make harder or more engaging content. My rebuttal has always been it's because you can coast through so much that skill gap exists. Take dungeons, for example. While I like most of those released in Stormblood (Template of the Fist can sod right off though), what I found engaging is healing through Bardam's Mettle with all Shire gear. The fact I had to make so many adjustments instead of the typical Holy spam made it a far better experience that I wish you got more consistently once you reached 70. This is where I feel WoW does a much better job with re-imagining its content. Unfortunately, it's hard to incentivize running a harder difficulty, though that could be where an alternative gear method comes into play. Like you said, the fundamentals are all there and the foundation is solid. They could just do with expanding it more with or without tomestones.

The sad thing for me was that my favorite moment in Bartam was imagining how cool it'd be to go hiking out there, free-form, while auto-pilot DPSing mass pulls as WHM. I had a couple pieces of Bartam gear carried over from leveling PLD, BRD, NIN, and SAM, and the tank was decently geared, but it just still ended up so muscle-memory that I couldn't help but chuckle a bit despairingly.

Some of ideas I've seen in the past include exchanging the Expert roulette (coin-flip) system for particular random daily bonus dungeons (50+) that are upscaled to meet your groups' level and item levels, potentially where you can add on a particular challenges for additional rewards and compete for best times for yet more rewards at the end of the day, revisions to or additional forms of PvP, entertaining overworld grindables (be that hunt revisions or new "Ruins" areas), missions (harking back to the 8-man instanced overworld scenarios, some of them decently difficult), new uses for our airships, etc. Many ranges of development effort necessary, and many ranges of potential resultant entertainment.

For myself, I'm not exactly sure where my focus should ideally be placed. I want to move away from the gear treadmill, or at least disguise it refreshingly, but more than that I just want to see the game as something I'd play even if there were no gear progression. But, trying to create ideas to that effect in a game (or indeed a genre) so firmly carrot-and-stick in design feels a bit... alien. And there are so many things I want to touch on even before that, from the way the story is delivered to the accessibility of lore and the openness of said story, the attractiveness of world interactions, the way cutscenes are handled (including their peeving stock animations every goddamn time), and plenty more.