Revamp Summoner idea

[IveraIvalice]

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I'm honestly not sure how to respond because it seems like it already does what your asking for and the examples you give are things that the current idea is already doing. I mean I mentioned that Garuda and ramuh would add dots to make use of times when you had to move, you'd plan for that or have those built up on standby for when you need them. But you said dots aren't useful in raids. The spells that you use to build up the summons makes you alternate with the procs as their main function along with just doing damage but for me, having some be very different then others is what would make it an easy job because that is when you simply learn rotations and don't have freedom anymore.

I just don't know if we will agree on one thing, that using whichever spells you want to build whichever gauge you want will lead to a set easy rotation. In my opinion, once you start adding in things you need to do and upkeep you gotta follow, that's when it becomes a non thinking job and takes away the freedom. The examples you mentioned specifically blm and rdm are similar to how it is now where you have to keep your movement spells ready for when you need them (Blm), in this case it's not spells it's the summon (Garuda/ramuh) and their abilities that are easier to use when you gotta move because they add dots. For rdm you aren't trying to keep from being unstable in the smn job but you are making use of procs that take you around the elements.

In rdm's case it's only 2 elements, in this case it's 6 and although it's not random which ones you will get, it still allows for planning and control along with a way to cycle around to all the elements if you choose or focus on just 3. Because you are cycling 3 at the minimum that would mean that you would have at least 3 summons ready to go at one time, that's the choice, it wouldn't be build up one bar enough to summon then start from scratch on another one. Having that reserve of summons and using them when you need to is the quick decision making your asking for. It's just not your standard spells, it's your summons.

Having the elements proc randomly is fine but I think that would make it too random and not allow you to control which summons you want anymore. Like if you are trying to build Leviathan fast but the spells just won't proc water that takes away the strategy. It's also fine if the regular spells can have some specific things like dots but to me that also makes it more of a standard rotation kinda thing because now you aren't choosing to use that spell to summon that primal your only using that spell to keep its dot or status effect up.

I think your seeing the smn spells as what should keep the combat interesting as far as the differences between them but they are simply a means to the real meat of the job. Similar to how blm had to stack astral fire 3 or umbrella ice 3 to make full use of those fire or ice spell powers, you build stacks and you can then use better spells that only come from the third stack. It's similar in that way. It's not a perfect job since there are no complimentary actions to speed those up and the timing of things aren't set to get the exact feel of the speed of combat but it's not having 1 decision every 30 seconds, it's having many options available to you at once and when you use one option you have to be prepared to not use that again for at least 30 seconds. If you using one summon but suddenly need another you could dismiss early to quickly summon another that you already had built but then those 2 would be on cool down back to back sooner then normal so that could leave you without 2 summons when you only would have had 1 on cool down.
There's risk/reward in that way too.

I'm open to any ideas I just think that anything that forces you to do something to keep up dps is what makes the job have a set optimal rotation that everyone will just use that. I think what your asking for is leading to what you don't want but maybe we just don't see eye to eye. This isn't meant be be any sort of disrespect towards your ideas, I just think we don't agree on what the problems are

[Stormblessed9000]

I'm honestly not sure how to respond because it seems like it already does what your asking for and the examples you give are things that the current idea is already doing. I mean I mentioned that Garuda and ramuh would add dots to make use of times when you had to move, you'd plan for that or have those built up on standby for when you need them. But you said dots aren't useful in raids. The spells that you use to build up the summons makes you alternate with the procs as their main function along with just doing damage but for me, having some be very different then others is what would make it an easy job because that is when you simply learn rotations and don't have freedom anymore.

The difference between DoT and straight damage isn't significant in raids as long as the resulting damage is the same. Movement shifts the balance in DoTs favor, but it's still ultimately just a balancing game. The real point of adding DoTs is that they add depth to the gameplay since you actually need to manage them. If they just come passively when you summon one of your six summons there's no management aspect.

I just don't know if we will agree on one thing, that using whichever spells you want to build whichever gauge you want will lead to a set easy rotation. In my opinion, once you start adding in things you need to do and upkeep you gotta follow, that's when it becomes a non thinking job and takes away the freedom.

The issue is that there is no more freedom in what you suggest. There will be lots of possible options, but there either will be one builder combo that will be superior to the others in a given encounter, and you'd just spam that over and over again for 30 seconds, or the sequence actually doesn't matter and you can just rotate through them mindlessly. Either way it's the illusion of choice.

I'm afraid forced management and rotational busywork is a core part of tab-targeted MMO gameplay. The skeleton of the game is incredibly simple so you need to add dot/buff management, resource management, positionals, cast times ect. to actually involve the player. Having a choice of way to spend resources is fine, samurai does this very well with it's sen by having the option of a DoT, an AoE, and a direct damage option, but there needs to be something in between the spenders to keep people engaged.

The examples you mentioned specifically blm and rdm are similar to how it is now where you have to keep your movement spells ready for when you need them (Blm), in this case it's not spells it's the summon (Garuda/ramuh) and their abilities that are easier to use when you gotta move because they add dots.

The problem is that your summons aren't reactive in the way skills like tripplecast are. With your summons, you'd just bring them as soon as you can since holding onto them will hurt your DPS.

For rdm you aren't trying to keep from being unstable in the smn job but you are making use of procs that take you around the elements.
In rdm's case it's only 2 elements, in this case it's 6 and although it's not random which ones you will get, it still allows for planning and control along with a way to cycle around to all the elements if you choose or focus on just 3. Because you are cycling 3 at the minimum that would mean that you would have at least 3 summons ready to go at one time, that's the choice, it wouldn't be build up one bar enough to summon then start from scratch on another one. Having that reserve of summons and using them when you need to is the quick decision making your asking for. It's just not your standard spells, it's your summons.

Again, the problem is that the actual decisions will be made for you before the fight even starts. People will work out that using x builders to build up to y summons will give the most DPS in the average fight. Once this happens, there's nothing else interesting about the class.

Having the elements proc randomly is fine but I think that would make it too random and not allow you to control which summons you want anymore. Like if you are trying to build Leviathan fast but the spells just won't proc water that takes away the strategy. It's also fine if the regular spells can have some specific things like dots but to me that also makes it more of a standard rotation kinda thing because now you aren't choosing to use that spell to summon that primal your only using that spell to keep its dot or status effect up.

That's fine, but then you need something else to make the combat more interesting than literally rolling through six or less buttons until you have your highest damage primal and then rotating through the lower damage ones.

I think your seeing the smn spells as what should keep the combat interesting as far as the differences between them but they are simply a means to the real meat of the job. Similar to how blm had to stack astral fire 3 or umbrella ice 3 to make full use of those fire or ice spell powers, you build stacks and you can then use better spells that only come from the third stack.

The difference here is that the build up is very quick and only happens at the start of the fight or as a punishment for letting the timers run out.

It's similar in that way. It's not a perfect job since there are no complimentary actions to speed those up and the timing of things aren't set to get the exact feel of the speed of combat but it's not having 1 decision every 30 seconds, it's having many options available to you at once and when you use one option you have to be prepared to not use that again for at least 30 seconds. If you using one summon but suddenly need another you could dismiss early to quickly summon another that you already had built but then those 2 would be on cool down back to back sooner then normal so that could leave you without 2 summons when you only would have had 1 on cool down.
There's risk/reward in that way too.

I'm open to any ideas I just think that anything that forces you to do something to keep up dps is what makes the job have a set optimal rotation that everyone will just use that. I think what your asking for is leading to what you don't want but maybe we just don't see eye to eye. This isn't meant be be any sort of disrespect towards your ideas, I just think we don't agree on what the problems are

Ultimately you've got a cool idea, but you mustn't underestimate the ability for people to optimize away choice in favor of efficiency. Every job needs to include engaging elements that are still relevant regardless. Some classes have procs, others have timers that are effected by chaotic fight elements, others force you to miss positionals or cancel big casts to avoid AoE. Everything has something that forces them to constantly readjust their gameplay at a GCD-to-GCD timescale.

You're kind of doing that with the summons but they come out far too infrequently to hold up the class on their own. You could argue that changing from building towards DPS summons to building for support summons counts as well, but the build up time means it takes effect too slowly to be a useful reactive decision.

[Jhett_Magnum]

@everyone saying all summons need to be useful...

Let's say you summon Garuda and use her signature attack, the enemy becomes "Turbulent " (Air aspected 30sec DoT) therefore increasing Earth based attacks by 200% for single targets (Titan).
OR
Summon Ramuh for 150% damage but it's an aoe around the "Turbulent" target.

Basically Fire>Ice>Wind>Earth>Lightning>Water is a 200% single target rotation and Fire>Wind>Lightning is 150% aoe rotation
Ice>Water>Earth is a utility rotation.
Every time an element is hit by its affinity a dreadwyrm thing fills. Bahamuts* Actions deal 300% damage.
Only reason the % is so high is because it takes longer to summon them.

[Karshan]

Or for exemple :

Have a neutral set of spells : the 4 ruins, that serve as a regen phase (Ruin 3 becomes AOE, Ruin 4 takes place of 2 with level trait)

Have summon cost half the MP it actually does, and the cast time of a normal spell (btw that would also reduce death punishment a bit).

Have a combo set of 3 spells stronger each time (like 120 > 180 > 240)
- When Garuda-Egi is active, the combo is 3 wind spells, last one drops for exemple a magic vulnerability effect for 24 sec on boss and when you complete third combo, you can summon Demi Garuda for 12 seconds (and use the ruins during her presence) that ends with a 300 potency attack or equivalent
- With Ifrit-Egi, the 3 spells become fire (the same way warrior skills change you know), last one drops physic vulne, Demi Ifrit for 12 secs
- With Titan-Egi, 3 earth spells, 3rd combo does a DOT effect, Demi Titan for 12 secs

Each time a Demi Summon does its big attack, like SAM you light up a nod,
1 nod : you can use it right away for DeathFlare (potency reduced to 300 because you could go at it every 12 seconds) or you can wait for 2 nods for :
2 nods : TeraFlare (potency 680) or you can wait for 3 nods for :
3 nods active : you can summon Demi Bahamut for 18 secs that does more or less what it actually does (I would make him immobile, and only one Akh Morn in the end but does five rays in a row with a potency of 280 + falldown each, like it should have been from the start)

[IveraIvalice]

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Yes but your saying that the summons build too slow to be what your asking for without knowing how fast any of this builds or how often you will be able to summon without knowing cool down or build up information because I haven't can up with details like that.

It seems like your saying you want the job to be safe from having people find a set rotation for it that everyone will just go to therefore make the other spells do stuff to keep you busy but those are different things. Every dps job currently has a set rotation that people figured out that everyone follows, it just involves keeping up buffs and debuffs but there is no actual choice behind them at all and that's why I don't agree with what your saying. Even if the regular spells had things to do between summons, people would make an optimal rotation for those spells and those summons, making it exactly what your trying to prevent, making it exactly like every other job that has a set rotation and no choice. Your not asking for the job to be safe from a set rotation, your asking for it to keep you busy between summons so it gives you more to do. But that's also based on the idea that you don't know how often you will summon or have summons at your disposal.

I still compare the building of bars to both Blm and Rdm. For blm you build the stacks at the start of the fight and then your good until you mess up but that's the same as this version of smn except this is even easier because you won't lose your bars between fights. If you start from all bars being 0% then you will alternate 3 spells and have 3 summons ready to go at roughly the same time, or alternate more and have a slower build but more summons ready to go at the same time, then as you use some you still have others to use without building more, that's what lets it be a reactive thing if you need to but still it's based on planning the progression of the fight more then reacting at a moments notice. I don't see anything wrong with that, I don't think it needs to be a moment by moment decision making, the current way has its difficulties too. Even if there are set rotations that work best for each fight, it's still changing on a fight by fight basis and that's fine, I'm not trying to prevent that

This is all why I get what your saying but I just don't think we see the same things as problems, what you see as a problem I see as totally fine, it's just a different way to play. What you see as a negative outcome to not fixing these problems I see happening to every other job already. So I'm not really sure what else's to say about it. Some of the other ideas around here have been awesome that would change up the way it plays maybe more to your liking. The crystals idea and the thought of having an elemental vulnerability applied to the target sound really cool and a way that might let you go around more elements

[IveraIvalice]

@everyone saying all summons need to be useful...

Let's say you summon Garuda and use her signature attack, the enemy becomes "Turbulent " (Air aspected 30sec DoT) therefore increasing Earth based attacks by 200% for single targets (Titan).
OR
Summon Ramuh for 150% damage but it's an aoe around the "Turbulent" target.

Basically Fire>Ice>Wind>Earth>Lightning>Water is a 200% single target rotation and Fire>Wind>Lightning is 150% aoe rotation
Ice>Water>Earth is a utility rotation.
Every time an element is hit by its affinity a dreadwyrm thing fills. Bahamuts* Actions deal 300% damage.
Only reason the % is so high is because it takes longer to summon them.

I like this idea it seems like a cool way to play, I think I still prefer building bars leads to a filled crystal to progress on the bahamut though. That would be that once a bar is filled, the Crystal becomes charged for that element even if you use up that bar to summon, the Crystal is still charged. But the way you fill up to bahamut isn't bad either so both seem cool to me. I just like the idea of crystals since that's a very ff thing and reminds me of having all elements confined and then combined to summon the big guy.

I do really like the idea of an elemental vulnerability being applied to the spells the summoner does or the attacks the summon does since elemental weakness was a cool strategy in standard ff games that was not a thing in this game and that kinda makes it come back in a cool way that works in this game, for this job at least

[IveraIvalice]

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There is a lot of thought put into this and I like that you have solid numbers to show your examples, but I think it's keeping a lot of the current summoner that I wanted to replace such as the ruin spell and egis.
I was more in favor of the dot, ruin, neutral spell and withering feeling of the job to be made into something else, though I don't know all ff jobs enough to say what that would be. And for this vision there wouldn't be egis, just the full summon. The sense of progression from egi to summon is cool but I just don't like egis at all lol

[Shurrikhan]

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Agreed.

It'd take some serious, serious work in order to try to actively thwart the streamlining of macrorotation into something linear in a given fight—or worse, generally.

[Stormblessed9000]

I disagree completely about other classes not having choices. Some classes need to decide if it's safe to stand in an AoE for half a second longer to get off a spell or positional, to clip a dot since you're not sure you'll be able to apply it at the proper time, or to prioritise reapplying a speed buff instead of a damage one since you think it will make you able to squeeze in an extra GCD, these kind of things do have optimal answers, but their immediacy forces you to actually think about the answers.

On the other hand, this new summoner, in it's builder phase at least, has barely any choices it needs to make. Almost everything you'd need to decide would be decided before you actually step into the fight and the can be written in one sentence/image on a guide. The summons themselves could add some element of decision making if they are well balanced enough that their relative performance varies with the flow of the fight, but even then you're in the same situation as the other classes in that you're just trying to figure out the best option. The only difference is that most other classes give you more choices you need to make and give you more to think about between those choices.

The balance of the summons would also need to be changed every time new content was released. If their situation dependant damage is not close enough in an encounter, all of your choices vanish.

[IveraIvalice]

I mean I can just say the same thing I've said for the last 3 posts again but we really just don't see it the same way.
I'm kinda losing interest in this really, I would have rather talked about improvements, adjustments, filling out the details and other things like that with people rather then go back and forth on how I need to do better with my idea. To me it just plays differently then current jobs and I'm fine with that