Unpopular opinion

[TheCount]

snip

That's a wrong assumption. In Stormblood the Paladin for example now has much more to make it a really good tank choice even if Warrior DPS were better. It has better utility by a large margin, and its damage would still be good just not AS good as the warrior whom brings no utility at all. It would be a good balance

[Dortharl]

That's a wrong assumption. In Stormblood the Paladin for example now has much more to make it a really good tank choice even if Warrior DPS were better. It has better utility by a large margin, and its damage would still be good just not AS good as the warrior whom brings no utility at all. It would be a good balance

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

[TheCount]

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

Oh come now. I don't think you actually believe that's enough. Not only does WAR have a much harder time achieving optimal DPS that difference is still pathetic when it does.

[Dortharl]

Oh come now. I don't think you actually believe that's enough. Not only does WAR have a much harder time achieving optimal DPS that difference is still pathetic when it does.

How much do you think would be reasonable, keep in mind that the utility which your balancing this against becomes less useful the more parties learn mechanics and gear up, while DPS becomes more useful.

[Tufelhunden]

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

Oh come on. Once you throw a slashing, nin or Sam, it evens out. So no there is no real divergence in DPS.

[Capn_Goggles]

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

If you've played a warrior at 70, you know where most of their DPS is coming from, and should also know that their parses are largely based on dummies. Warrior has higher DPS in a vacuum under ideal conditions, a large part of this is his built-in slashing debuff, which both DRK and PLD can take full advantage of because there's usually either a SAM or a NIN in the party if not both. Improving WAR DPS isn't just a matter of buffing potencies, it requires a whole rework of inner release; which in my opinion is a very poorly designed ability after the initial hype the prospect of six fell cleaves brings.

[Reynhart]

it requires a whole rework of inner release; which in my opinion is a very poorly designed ability after the initial hype the prospect of six fell cleaves brings.

Instead of halving the cost of all beast skill, it could drastically increase their potency...or make them all criticals.

[Capn_Goggles]

Instead of halving the cost of all beast skill, it could drastically increase their potency...or make them all criticals.

That's more of a band-aid solution to a tourniquet problem. WAR is defined by his IR burst rotation, and is put in a bizarre situation where he doesn't want to use his abilities as often as he'd want because it's mandatory that they line up with his burst rotation in order to actually out-DPS other tanks. It's a poorly designed ability in my opinion because it centers the entire job around one ability on a 2 minute cooldown timer. Coincidentally, DRK is also defined by his capstone ability, and I think suffers greatly for it because of the way it is designed.

Paladin wins out again in this regard because his 70 ability is really awesome and flavorful, but it doesn't completely flip the job on it's butt and change the way it plays completely.

[Reynhart]

WAR is defined by his IR burst rotation, and is put in a bizarre situation where he doesn't want to use his abilities as often as he'd want because it's mandatory that they line up with his burst rotation in order to actually out-DPS other tanks.

But I feel like it was the same during HW, only with a Berzerk window. To the point when, unless it's an absolute necessity, you'd also save some of your defensive CD to line up to berzerk and allow a triple Fell Cleave. And I'm not sure that without the triple Fell Cleave, WAR was able to do much more than DRK or even PLD. The problem of the actual window it's that it's so long that you'll have a hard time pulling it completely, because you might need to move out of an AoE, or the boss will become untargetable for a little time, etc...

[Phoenicia]

But I feel like it was the same during HW, only with a Berzerk window.

There is a huge difference between the Triple Fell Cleave combo vs. today's Hexa Cleave.

Heavenward's Triple FC Rotation:
1.5 minute CD, required 4 stacks as Zerk generated the 5th, 1 stack generating CD (RI aligns perfectly) and Infuriate (which is delayed by 50% of its CD). Outside of this window, you liberally FC at 5 stacks. And since the stacks were on a timer, you wanted to spend them anyways.

In this scenario, Berserk was stronger, the majority of your DPS graph is high with even higher spikes. The disparity between the low points and the high points exists, but isn't too big that the loss of a berserk window wouldn't suddenly kill your DPS.

Stormblood's Hexa Cleave:
2 Minute CD, Need 100 Guage available, Infuriate, 1 GCD to fit in Upheaval, and outside of your berserk you CANNOT spend gauge on Fell Cleave as you barely generate enough to have 120, 20 of which is reserved for Upheaval.

In this scenario, your DPS graphis really low, with very high spikes. The disparity between your low point and high point is much higher to the degree that losing any of hte high points lowers your overall DPS too much.
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So the biggest difference between 3.x and 4.x is that you FC whenever available back in HW, but now you do NOT want to touch FC outside of zerk window. Making our average potency out of burst window a joke. Add this with intentionally choosing to use the 20 potency lower combo of Storm Path instead of Butcher Block to generate gauge faster, further lowering your average potency.

This issue existed for PLD in heavensward where Fight or Flight was your biggest damage "burst", but it couldn't save your average low potency. And you personally were arguing with me about this particular point when my argument was PLD's DPS was "fine" and its issues lied in everything else that further caused the low DPS.

The reason why PLD can out DPS the other two tanks now is that at any given moment, it is operating under a heavy damage buff. You're either under Requiescat window where you are literally nuking with Holy Spirit, the PLD's "Fell Cleave" if you may, or you are under Fight or Flight and dishing out 25% more damage on your already higher than WAR base potency combos. You have literally just under 10 seconds of unbuffed damage which you can easily push into down time phases as there is no actual resource that you need to condition well before hand. You're literally bursting the entire fight.

~ Phoenicia ~