Unpopular opinion

[Dortharl]

Oh come now. I don't think you actually believe that's enough. Not only does WAR have a much harder time achieving optimal DPS that difference is still pathetic when it does.

How much do you think would be reasonable, keep in mind that the utility which your balancing this against becomes less useful the more parties learn mechanics and gear up, while DPS becomes more useful.

[Tufelhunden]

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

Oh come on. Once you throw a slashing, nin or Sam, it evens out. So no there is no real divergence in DPS.

[Capn_Goggles]

I agree that WAR should have higher dmg than PLD and it currently does have higher DPS than PLD. The threads I've seen which show parses and actual data all show that WAR has 100-200 higher DPS than PLD and DRK. I don't anyone has argued that they should be the same.

If you've played a warrior at 70, you know where most of their DPS is coming from, and should also know that their parses are largely based on dummies. Warrior has higher DPS in a vacuum under ideal conditions, a large part of this is his built-in slashing debuff, which both DRK and PLD can take full advantage of because there's usually either a SAM or a NIN in the party if not both. Improving WAR DPS isn't just a matter of buffing potencies, it requires a whole rework of inner release; which in my opinion is a very poorly designed ability after the initial hype the prospect of six fell cleaves brings.

[Reynhart]

it requires a whole rework of inner release; which in my opinion is a very poorly designed ability after the initial hype the prospect of six fell cleaves brings.

Instead of halving the cost of all beast skill, it could drastically increase their potency...or make them all criticals.

[BluexBird]

In V1S, Warriors have a decent chance at keeping up with Paladins in damage. In V2S it becomes a bit trickier. In V3S though it's impossible to match Paladins or Dark Knights, unless they are extremely bad. You're forced to save your Inner Release combo until after Spellblade Holy, because if you happen to get marked, it's over.

And then regardless of whether you decide to hold your Inner Release or not, it'll either be up right before Mindjack, or just before the giant dragon spawns. Neither of these two situations allows the execution of the mess that is the Warrior's optimal damage rotation.

So you're forced to hold onto your combo until after you've picked up the dragon, or the dragon is dead, leading to a massive DPS loss.

And then throughout several parts of the fight, you rarely get 20 seconds where you're able to do your full combo. And when you do, chances are it's probably still on cooldown.

So yeah, take that into account next time you say Warriors do more damage than the other tanks.

[Lyth]

In V1S, Warriors have a decent chance at keeping up with Paladins in damage. In V2S it becomes a bit trickier. In V3S though it's impossible to match Paladins or Dark Knights, unless they are extremely bad.

...

So yeah, take that into account next time you say Warriors do more damage than the other tanks.

If you're having difficulty keeping up, the PLD or DRK in question is probably an entire quartile range higher in performance, either through gear and/or skill.

[Jhett_Magnum]

How much do you think would be reasonable, keep in mind that the utility which your balancing this against becomes less useful the more parties learn mechanics and gear up, while DPS becomes more useful.

That's the million dollar question. I hear buff this and buff that, but by how much really?

[Ekimmak]

The Triple Fell Cleave at least felt satisfying to pull off, with each hit being an impressive damage number.

Now the fun has stagnated, because Fell Cleave isn't that much fun when it's something you can see six of at a time.

[BluexBird]

The Triple Fell Cleave at least felt satisfying to pull off, with each hit being an impressive damage number.

Now the fun has stagnated, because Fell Cleave isn't that much fun when it's something you can see six of at a time.

I think that's a bit harsh, considering how hard it is to land 6 Fell Cleaves in most fights. You have to find the right times when you're able to pull off your full Inner Release combo. You'll often have to hold onto it for a while, or go with a lesser version of the combo.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see something else, but I definitely think the way things are now is better than just doing 3 Fell Cleaves.

[Chrono_Rising]

Ok I'll bite. I'll take it as a fact that dps wise the tanks are about the same now. Lets look at utility, mitigation, and mobility. I'm not a warrior by any stretch of the imagination so I'll just write what I know.

Utility:
Dark Knight
1. TBN: Shield on party memeber or self for 5k to 10k depending on target, frequent usage, dps loss/breakeven

Paladin
1. Clemency: powerful heal, frequent usage, dps loss
2. Divine Veil: Raid wide shield, medium usage, no dps loss
3. PoA: Raid wide mitigation 15% block, medium usuage, situational dps loss
4. Intervention: 10% or more mitigation on a single ally, frequent usuage, no dps loss

This is not balanced. The mitigations are fairly comparable, except that paladin has more and half of them come at no dps loss. Whereas the dark knight will gamble with their dps to achieve less.

Mitigation
Dark Knight
1. Grit: 20% damage mitigation, 18% mp cost 20% dps reduction on GCD
2. Rampart - wash
3. Shadow Wall: 30% mitigation, no cost, oGCD, 3 minute cooldown
4. Dark Mind: 15%-30% magic vuln down, no cost to 2400 mp, oGCD, 1 minute cooldown
5. TBN: 20% shield, 2400 mp cost, oGCD, 15 second cooldown, gains blood if broken

Paladin
1. Shield Oath: 20% damage mitigation, 8.5% mp cost 15% dps reduction on GCD
2. Rampart - wash
3. Sentinel: 40% mitigation, no cost, oGCD, 3 minute cooldown
4. Bulwark: 60% block up on all damage types, no cost, 3 minute cooldown
5. Shelltron: 100% block rate (unless crit) for 24% mitigation, no cost, 5 second recast provided you have the guage
6. POA: 100% block rate (unless crit) for 24% mitigation, costs dps, 2 minute recast
7. Passive block: RNG blocking 24% damage reduction, no cost, no recast.

Not getting into durations, paladin has more but not necessarily better. This is less clear because half of paladins kit cannot be used together do to half of them being blocks. Having been through the first 3 floors of savage I like the dark knight kit more for tank busters, and the paladin kit for all the time in between so healers can dps more. The biggest differences I can see here:
1. Shadow wall is weak compared to sentinel, that 10% is actually quite a bit more when it come to tank busters.
2. Tank stances, grit costs more and punishes harder.
3. Dark Knight has no passive mitigation, imo between tank busters drk is lacking.

Summing up: Dark Knight has more stacking mitigation, but suffers from 1/5th of them being good against only some attacks and having no passive mitigation other than stance which punishes dps harder than pld while simultaneously costing more. Paladin has more mitigation, likely because the CD's on some of them are longer, and many cannot be stacked, but you should have something up most of the time, less punishing tank stance. Magic turns Dark knight does well (maybe better than paladin), physical turns paladin dominates. Dark knight seems to shine at tank busters, but overall paladin feels more tanky between the busters.

Mobility
Dark Knight
1. Plunge: Awesome nuff said

Paladin
nothing

Clearly dark knight is more mobile than paladin, the rush attack is underrated imo.

Summary, Paladin outshines dark knight in terms of utility. Defensively, drk is semi propped up by the sheer number of magical cleaves and busters in current end game (read dark mind), but suffers from having a more punishing tank stance and lower individual mitigation, how this works out with synergy between skills is more difficult to determine. Paladin has more mitigation abilities, many of which just come naturally. In terms of mobility, drk has a clear advantage in plunge. Does this seem balanced? IMO no, it does not. Does this mean paladin should be nerfed? No, it means Dark knight needs more utility to match paladin, and likely needs some defensive buffs to counteract the passive blocking of paladin.