Tank Balance Achieved?

[Shinkyo]

Snip

I agree that PLD/DRK or PLD/WAR doesn't really make a difference and that's why the current situation is probably the most balanced we've ever had even though there's a lot to complain about.
DRK/WAR are both good as a PLD sidekick and that's the whole issue, we're only sidekicks and can never shine as much as PLD.

[BluexBird]

I've always played Warrior. It's been my only class in over a year. I'm doing savage right now and honestly, I don't really see the difference when I'm paired with a Paladin or a Dark Knight. I've seen both good and bad ones, with some Paladins ending up with terrible damage, and some Dark Knights almost coming close to my own.

It's a hard call to make, though. I think the only people who can say anything are the healers, since a Paladin's utility has a direct effect on their abilities.

[Aomine1992]

Tbh other than the fact that drk rotation is much easier than war, I don't think pld/drk is necessarily better than pld/war in o3s and o4s. For o3s if you main tank as a war you don't really need to do any tank swap since holmgang will be up for every other critical hit, enabling you to stack at least 3 cds for the remaining critical hits.

I just want to point out that no tank swapping should be happening in V3s, critical hit won't kill you even without awareness I usually MT as a DRK and have no issues surviving the whole time.

[Tankstuff]

war is just annoying to play now, because all our eggs are in one basket with berserk/IR and the potencies on the combos are garbage compared to pld/drk. Also why was pld allowed to keep dots but the other tanks lost theirs? lol. Its just stupid, hey I want to do my opener on O3S better pray i dont get marked and have to run away from the boss and miss my biggest burst damage window. Its cool being pld though your dots keep on ticking and you throw out ranged fell cleaves so mechanics dont even effect you haha ecks dee

[Shinkyo]

snip

yup, it's better for WAR to open with an upheaval and delay IR/Zerk by a full combo so you mitigate the risk on being locked by the mechanic.
PLD could also be affected by mechanics if it happens during Requiescat but to a less extent.

There's a lot of fight specific planning and optimizations for WAR to do good DPS. It's more punishing that it is rewarding but it makes the class more interesting to me.

[MyaValentine]

People who say Paladin's utilities are "useless" or "no big deal" have obviously never done a single challenging content in this game. And by challenging content, I don't mean going in with 20% echo and beating it...

I'm a main Paladin done every fight in this game did coils pre echo and have V2S down to 4% and failed due to not enough dps. I'm neither a Idiot nor I'm pretending anythingn I neither lack capasity nor aweranes to know how to use these tools and "obviously" I've done my fair amount of challenging content champ. Messed up the stack up mechanincs got vulnerability and Guess what, I have Pair of comptetent healers who know how to keep the party alive shield and protect everyone when needed one of them my own girlfriend (the owner of this account) if you really think paladin uitlity is so good an help so much your pt maybe you need to find better healers before calling people out on the forums the fact is that it really doesn't, divine veil and intervention are the only 2 utility pld really offers since you can weive them any other "utility" is a dps loss or usuless and I'm being far fetched because divine veil and intervention hardly saves our healers a global coolddown. I use them I they "help" but I sometimes don't because I'm focusing on damage or weaving a more important oGCD and guess what....makes no difference. so please keep post like this civil it's ok to have an opinion but no calling people names because you believe your fact are right.

[Tankstuff]

yup, it's better for WAR to open with an upheaval and delay IR/Zerk by a full combo so you mitigate the risk on being locked by the mechanic.
PLD could also be affected by mechanics if it happens during Requiescat but to a less extent.

There's a lot of fight specific planning and optimizations for WAR to do good DPS. It's more punishing that it is rewarding but it makes the class more interesting to me.

which would be perfectly fine with me IF optimizing dps for war was significantly higher, but you do all this work and planning just to break even with plds or maybe beat them by 100-200 dps, its a joke. I went from having fun with it to just being frustrated during prog and swapping to drk

[Shinkyo]

Snip.

Paladin's utility isn't a DPS enabler, it's a buffer to help smooth out mistakes from the party and potentially overcome what could have snowballed in a wipe.
It's to help keep the fight going when people screw up which can be distracting to other members.

PLD has many ways to help in those situations from party mitigation, single target mitigation, heals, mechanics skip with Hallowed (or 12 sec of free Healer DPS).
These are very useful in a prog setting and early in an raid tier where you're pretty much min iLvl.
I can guarantee you that tackling V4S in i320 ish gear requires as much mitigation as you can get and some aoe damage are borderline a raid wipe without extra raid mitigation from tanks/dps.
But out of the 3 tanks, only PLD has any sort of raid mitigation...

PLD's mitigation will lessen in value as people perfect the mechanics and party ilvl increases. But until then, there's no denying the value of their utility.

WAR/DRK in HW weren't meta because of their DPS, it's because of Delirium / Path / Reprisal... all mitigation skills...

[MyaValentine]

WAR/DRK in HW weren't meta because of their DPS, it's because of Delirium / Path / Reprisal... all mitigation skills...

Did you forgot the strengh acc meta? DRK/ WAR was heavily influence because of dps I don't want to hear now out of the sudden pld mitigation utility is what makes them good because they had the same utility on HW divine veil isn't new. Also I'm not saying pld mitigation utility is bad but it hardly is the game changer you and many others are painting it as and it's what it's boiling me, if your party fuck up to a degree that divine vail or clemency will save a pt wipe changes are you are going to wipe 90% of the time, your healers are more than capable and equipped to handle all this situation and again while it helps it's not a raid saver just lessens some of the damage. also I'm not saying other 2 tanks should not have their utility but please stop bringing pld upfront because "utility" PLD right now is up front because it offers the same dmg much easier and it's personal mitigation but not because of it's utility.

also delirium/path were permanent mitigation hardly anything even close to what divine veil is and all tanks now have access to reprisal

[aleph_null]

I just want to point out that no tank swapping should be happening in V3s, critical hit won't kill you even without awareness I usually MT as a DRK and have no issues surviving the whole time.

You still won't mitigate as well as a war though. A war can do nearly the entire fight as MT in deliverance without putting much strain on the healers (probably do a tank swap near the end since you'd want to burn rampart + vengeance on the ninja adds without using defiance).

Critical hits come in intervals of somewhere around 1.5-2 mins, so awareness and shadow wall are up every two critical hits, rampart is up for every critical hit, and other than those your guaranteed mitigations are TBN and grit. War can do vengeance + awareness + thrill + raw intuition for the first one, use rampart for spellblade holy (which hits quite hard and is followed by the knife waltz), holmgang the second one, use rampart and raw intuition to mitigate auto attacks, vengeance + awareness for the third one, holmgang the fourth one, and so on. You have raw intuition, rampart for auto attack mitigation, while still saving thrill for your berserk'd upheavals. War's defensive toolkit is just too good for this fight.

That said, I think pld/drk might be the optimal composition for this fight, with tank swaps and maybe cover.

WAR/DRK in HW weren't meta because of their DPS, it's because of Delirium / Path / Reprisal... all mitigation skills...

Right and wrong. Dps is still the biggest reason why war/drk was meta. Sure path is nice for progression, but it's pretty much useless after like 2-3 weeks into farm. Eye alone in 3.x would've been enough to make war meta for farm/speedkill just from the sheer amount of raid dps gain it offers, either in a group with or without nin. Even in fights that were physical dmg heavy like a7s, a9s, a10s, war/drk was the optimal composition for farm.