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  1. #1
    Player
    dinnertime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,300
    Character
    Aurelius Lyon
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Well, some people didn't want it to be a DoT Job, there are some that liked it as a DoT job (who complained that we get only 2 DoTs now), then some that wanted it to focus more on pets, and then there's another side where they want it to be like classic FF summoning, big and flashy summons and attacks, almost like Demi-Bahamut (pretty much asking for a burst DPS).

    They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Angry_Evil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    129
    Character
    Angry Evil
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.
    Ultimately this divide exists precisely because developers failed to deliver fun and competently designed summoner job. It would be one thing if SMN was some new class or something, but it's not the case - summoner is iconic FF job that sets certain level of expectations(which certainly are not DoT mage or even "pet" mage).
    That being said I do agree that summoning bahamut is a step in the right direction and something summoners should've done from the beginning with other primals.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Jybril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,116
    Character
    Junpei Iorii
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    Well, some people didn't want it to be a DoT Job, there are some that liked it as a DoT job (who complained that we get only 2 DoTs now), then some that wanted it to focus more on pets, and then there's another side where they want it to be like classic FF summoning, big and flashy summons and attacks, almost like Demi-Bahamut (pretty much asking for a burst DPS).

    They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.
    Make it a DoT job with summons like Demi B.
    There, you still got your dots, and we get better "Egi's" by summoning the Primals one at a time.
    I still think the entire job needs to be redone. It is fine they are stepping in the right direction with that
    but they need to look before Demi B and fix the other messed they got going. They completely ignored
    the Egi's and gave us no new pet skills minus Demi B. There ARE still jarring problems SE!!
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Dyvid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Maelstrom
    Posts
    3,057
    Character
    Dyvid Pandemonium
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Blacksmith Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    Well, some people didn't want it to be a DoT Job, there are some that liked it as a DoT job (who complained that we get only 2 DoTs now), then some that wanted it to focus more on pets, and then there's another side where they want it to be like classic FF summoning, big and flashy summons and attacks, almost like Demi-Bahamut (pretty much asking for a burst DPS).

    They can't really please everybody if the community is so divided about Summoner's identity. I think Summoner now is a step in the right direction though, but executed poorly.
    They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
    Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
    Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
    Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

    I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.
    (8)

  5. #5
    Player
    Semmi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    43
    Character
    Rebecca Serenade
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyvid View Post
    They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
    Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
    Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
    Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

    I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.
    I'm upset because I thought HW SMN was near perfect, and they decided to go and change it up enough that it no longer feels fun to play, with core mechanical problems that aren't going to be solved until next expansion at the very least.
    (4)

  6. #6
    Player
    Kallera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    4,160
    Character
    Etoile Kallera
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyvid View Post
    Snip.
    Game developers are not paid to be disgruntled genies.

    The SMN was far and away unlike other summoners in games, but at least it did its trinity role to satisfaction, when it doesn't even do that, the veneer comes off entirely and you just have a busted class. Why is Ruin and DoTs such integral spells for the class? Why is summoning and pet management getting shafted? When it has such a weak identity to begin with, and poor performance added on, it just isn't Summoner anymore.
    (2)
    Last edited by Kallera; 07-21-2017 at 06:25 PM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallera View Post
    Why is Ruin and DoTs such integral spells for the class?
    To be fair, SMNs in non-job system FFs have a second school of magic to fall back on. Rydia had black magic. Eiko, Garnet and Yuna had white magic. The latter wouldn't fly unless you want to make the job a semi hybrid like RDM is.
    Why is summoning and pet management getting shafted?
    This was failure on part of the devs. They backed out of giving SMN Leviathan-egi and Ramuh-egi (despite showing us previews of those egi) under the excuse of overlap (even though that's bullocks seeing that there were avenues of utility available if we use the WoW warlock as a blueprint, which the devs had already used when building the ARR SMN).

    --------------------------------------------

    Here's something random I came up with for SMN:

    Carby + Primal skills + Bahamut: Basically, keep Carby as the permanent pet. Change all Aetherflow skills to become primal-related abilities. Energy Drain becomes Gyre Spume (Leviathan), dealing damage for a set duration and restoring some MP. Shadow Flare becomes Razed Earth (Titan). Bane becomes Shock Strike (Ramuh). Fester becomes Flaming Crush (Ifrit). Add a frontal-cone stun called Slipstream (Garuda). Using primal abilities grants you Aethertrail Attunement, which instead of being units like now, would be a bar that fills up.

    You get a second tier of primals that can be temp-summoned, consuming a notable chunk of the bar. This is where you'd have Demi-Ravana (reduces target's resistance to damage), Demi-Bismarck (lingering AoE damage), and Demi-Laskhmi (AoE heal or damage shield/Vril).

    You can also summon Demi-Bahamut with a full bar.
    (5)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  8. #8
    Player
    Nirokun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    264
    Character
    Nirokun Moon
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Here's something random I came up with for SMN:

    Carby + Primal skills + Bahamut: Basically, keep Carby as the permanent pet. Change all Aetherflow skills to become primal-related abilities.
    Yes please. Carbuncle as your Summoner-buddy is the dream. I also wanted him to provide a manaward/wall effect so we could have one defensive buff in the flavor of good ol' Ruby Light's Reflect. Something to give him his old flavor.
    (0)
    "Dream lofty dreams, and as you dream, so you shall become." - James Lane Allen

  9. #9
    Player
    Claviusnex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    965
    Character
    Alinhbo Rhiki
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dyvid View Post
    They tried though. Look at SMN pre 4.0:
    Player solely used Garuda for Contagion; which extended DoTs. This let player focus less on DoT management and opened the window to spam ruin more. SE's Response: Remove one DoT and extend duration to 30s each and add a proc ruin spell; less DoT management and more ruin spam.
    Players wanted a big bad primal pet: SE adds DB and the community is upset because it's too big and blocks view.
    Players wanted Egi's to be more like other FF and do more like buff/debuff: SE add buffs and debuff in which the community responds with anger because Buff/Debuff meant lower dps numbers.

    I'm sorry but the community got exactly what they asked for and are pissed because of it.
    - Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

    - I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.

    - There aren't any complaints about getting the Devotion buff. It is the half assed implementation based on one target's proximity to our pet. It is obvious someone decided they needed something for utility as an afterthought.

    The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.

    While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.
    (6)
    Last edited by Claviusnex; 07-21-2017 at 01:53 AM.

  10. #10
    Player
    LineageRazor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,822
    Character
    Lineage Razor
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Claviusnex View Post
    - Nobody asked for more Ruin and less DoT management. That was SE's idea to simplify the job.

    - I can't speak to the rationale for the hugely, big Bahamut as I've never seen those requests. I can say being around for about 2 years I don't recall seeing a request for bigger egi's but I also wasn't historically a big reader of the forums.
    Actually, yeah, these are both common complaints, or at least were years ago. For a long, long time, there was just about always a thread on the front page complaining about how tiny (and dumb-looking) the Egis were. Folks wanted to have the lumbering monstrosities they were used to from FFXI. As for DoTs, there were frequent criticisms that SMN were just WoW Warlocks with the serial numbers filed off and a pet tacked on, and that the resulting abomination was hardly a TRUE(tm) Final Fantasy Summoner at all.

    I, personally, didn't mind SMN's new incarnation. The DoT focus, while new to Summoners, I took as just another quirk of this incarnation, like how Rydia used black magic or Yuna white. I personally found the abstract design of the egis to be neat (it's what you get when you try to summon a Primal using a geometry textbook!) and having played FFXI myself I knew how annoying and obstructive the giant summons could be (summoning Titan to block folks' view was an actual griefing tactic during NM farming). Nevertheless, I could certainly see why folks were disappointed, even if I wasn't, myself.

    The same goes for Sustain. SE said they figured Summoners could move their egi's out of harms way and nobody uses it anyway so who needs it. Let's not think about how it affects Titan or Ilfrit who by definition are meant to be in the thick of it. Regular pet movement might be workable if all of the Summoner DPS was through the egi. However 75% comes from the Summoner themselves. This means every manual movement of the egi takes away from overall DPS. Add in the other changes that gimp the Summoner and you have a broken class that didn't need be broken.
    It doesn't help at all that the Place command is kinda clunky. But yeah, given that two out of three egis are intended to remain in close quarters - and Titan in particular is DESIGNED to be taking near constant damage - SE's explanation for removing Sustain is kind of ludicrous. I'll admit that I didn't use it often myself in Heavensward - but this is because I had no need for Titan at all (overworld stuff was all too weak to require a tank Egi, and instanced stuff I usually used Garuda who rarely took damage), but it was still good to have.

    While it might not be a traditional FF Summoner the HW version was working pretty smoothly. If SE didn't like that they should have come out a said we are going to work on changing the Summoner toward its more traditional interpretation and fully designed the new job. If they didn't have the resources to do it properly for SB then they should not have made major architectural changes to the job and done the minimum required to build up to level 70. In the end they would have had more satisfied customers and fewer complaints.
    What I object to most is the fact that SE seems to be treating these criticisms like, "Eh, there are always complainers." While this bemused headshaking is justified for some of the noise made by the fanbase (such as the never-ending back-and-forth as to how difficult the Raids should be), I'm not sure the disappointment with Summoner is so clear-cut. If there's some super-secret way to play SMN that makes it competitive with RDM, or even with BLM, I don't think players have discovered it yet.
    (2)

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