MNK Feedback (long)

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, I did read you, but thanks for answering my question, as I wanted to make sure.
Yes I'm aware of what GL does, I've played monk since 2.0. If the potency is high enough it would be a DPS increase to use tornado kick into a snap punch. Since snap punch is used right after TK, we're effectively only losing 2 stacks of GL, and if the potency is worth it, then it's a DPS increase.

I would love to test it myself, but I've yet to level MNK to 70.

A little too tired to develop a full sample size for this (requiring about at least five 5+minute tests each way in which I open normally and then sync my 4rd IR with 3rd RoF in order to use TK before Snap, and then continue for long enough as not to inflate TK, or continue without the TK), but you should be able to napkin math it.

INCREDIBLY SLOPPY NAPKIN MATH:
The Crit Multiplier nerf has badly hurt Internal Release contribution. Going to sloppily call it a 10% damage bonus. That brings us up to 90% maximum bonus with DK, Twin, GL3, IR, RoF. That would put Tornado Kick at 627.

If one has the perfect sync-up, such that Demolish is up placed 5 GCDs before TK, and DK and Twin 7 and 6, then you'd have your lowest potencies when they least matter, during the GL1 period, sacrificing 88 potency and .6 GCDs. GL2 period would sacrifice a relative 55ish potency (assuming base 20% crit by which to devalue the relative potency of Bootshine to a crit-possible value) and .3 GCDs. Disregarding sync, that combined .9 GCD would cost you around 270 potency.

Maybe a ~200 potency gain?

[Lastelli]

the only saving grace of the monk (and if you did notice nin too) it's our fast attack speed, that why get +30% damage buff but a -15% attack speed is totally bad for the monk.

Potencies and gcd speed are totally irrelevant here. There's so much more to a dps job toolkit, including buffs and ogcd abilities, that any consideration about your combo potency in a vacuum is just useless. Especially if you try to suggest that speed is the only thing that makes mnk damage good to somehow prove that rof is bad even though rof is a substantial dps increase. There's just no logic there.

[Hexxon]

Never felt the need to post until now. It's true that MNK does very good damage (easily can be 1st without a good SAM around), no one is arguing that. However, it's also true that the class design leaves much to be desired. Too many poor ideas implemented, with too many poor excuses accompanying them as we get shot down at every request for change. By far the most annoying being "you already do good damage, get over it." I almost feel like I'm playing WoW with how the devs treat this class (i.e Warlock).

It's not about doing good damage. The class is DULL and a total snoozefest. 123, 456, weave ogcds. Forever. There's no thought in it. It's literally more braindead than RDM, except RDM is at least very fun to play and has at least a few different things you can do and tons of versatility. MNK though? There's nothing to manage, no procs, no combo extensions, no dots other than the one that comes *automatically* with the combo you're already doing, nothing. GL3 is a joke to maintain now, and chakra is a simple matter of "push TFC when you hear the ding". Yawn.

There are so many design choices they could have made to hugely improve the class. Players suggest tons of ideas they just ignore. 4.0 MNK can't possibly be the best you can come up with considering the huge amount of time in-between expansions. It just makes people feel like no one at the top really cares.

It's easy to come up with ideas. Balance is a simple matter of changing numbers. Here's a few ideas:

1) Tornado Kick

- 5-Chakra AOE. Grants GL4. Why not? We need more uses for chakra.

OR (this one's better)

- 5-Chakra Single Target, grants GL4 for 15sec. Allows the use of one Expanded Combo and then drops to GL3. Raise cd of TK to 30-40sec or something.

2) Expanded Combos

After Snap/Demo, you may use the following abilities while under the effect of GL4 only:
- One Ilm (with largely buffed potency), AotD (also largely buffed), Mantra (45% effect instead of 30% and does a x-potency group heal)

And then follow it up with a special finisher, based on Sabin's Blitz:

- SUPLEX (huge single target potency), Fire Dance (large aoe potency), Bum Rush (requires another 5 chakra, but does more than Suplex if you can get it)

3) Tackle Mastery
- Just remove it

4) Riddle of Earth/Wind
- Create an actual Riddle of Wind, and, as many have said, refresh on use instead of on hit. This would make it useful on phase jumps where no damage is involved. Remove the refresh from Riddle of Earth and instead just do a flat, one-time 30% damage reduction.

5) Other Ideas:
Speaking of Blitz, have you considered an actual Blitz system? Sorta like Mudras but with directional input like the original? Ehh maybe a little overkill here but it sounds fun.

Can probably come up with a ton of other things but I'm sure you get the point.

[ray1108]

I couldn't agree more with the whole thread. Even if everyone said it already: Noone is complaining about the dps.
All we want is to change the 5+ completely useless skills(+ tackle mastery). I could not remember any job that have that many skills which are really never used or atleast so extremely situational that the chance is as high as winning the EuroMillions jackpot!!

Should Stormblood not be "our" Expansion? Atleast for that, there should happen something to MNK. Like they did to DRG from 2.0 to 3.0 in their expansion.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I agreee with pretty much everything. The only thing i'd like to add is that despite not being the top dps anymore we are still punished extremely heavily in downtime compared to nins and sams. Monk had such punishing downtime because they were top of pDPS and managing gl3 was what seperated us from the goods and bads. And other things like chakra management, form shift, optimal TK usage etc you get the point


I feel like in unavoidable downtime we are still the most punished melee dps, losing what, 50% damage upon gl3 and all our buffs and debuffs gone. Perfect balance on at least 90s could alleviate this somwhat. Or even 2 mins. 3 mins on PB could maybe be justified when we were actually at the top but we arent anymore so there is no need for us to suffer like we used to now that jobs like blm have enochian on 30s, sam only has combo timers to keep track of and even they are 30s. And drg's botd is 30s too so i find it hard to justify the reason that GL3 is a pitiful 16s and PB is on a 180s cd

Since TK is optimal in RoF at the last second before coeurl form. We actually have around 27s of slowness. Thats 1m going fast and 27s going slow. And its painful.

and yeah to put more emphasis on it. Monk isnt doing bad dps not by any means we arent asking for more we want to just not be so slow and have our actual utility be utility for everyone

[Leonus]

snip

I don't quite agree with the notion that Mnk is the most punished melee dps anymore. 9 GCDs to get back to GL3 and have all dots and buffs up, 7 if form shift is properly utilized. Mnk has ramp up time, but it's not that bad or slow Unless you are chosen for every mechanic in the fight or every minute there is a phase change where the boss leaves for an extended period of time.


Also, I understood why people called HW the Drg expansion but I always thought that it had more to do with the theme of the expansion. HW was not really for Drgs, just like SB isn't really for Mnks. It's just the theme of the expansion being ala mihgo. How boring would the trailers be if he stayed archer throughout each expansion?

[TheRedMage]

I don't quite agree with the notion that Mnk is the most punished melee dps anymore. 9 GCDs to get back to GL3 and have all dots and buffs up, 7 if form shift is properly utilized. Mnk has ramp up time, but it's not that bad or slow Unless you are chosen for every mechanic in the fight or every minute there is a phase change where the boss leaves for an extended period of time.


Also, I understood why people called HW the Drg expansion but I always thought that it had more to do with the theme of the expansion. HW was not really for Drgs, just like SB isn't really for Mnks. It's just the theme of the expansion being ala mihgo. How boring would the trailers be if he stayed archer throughout each expansion?

Which job would you argue is more punished than MNK?

[HoLoFoNo]

Which job would you argue is more punished than MNK?

DRG certainly if we are going by melee dps. Like DRG is what the 12 second GL MNK used to be.~

Lets put it this way, imagine if chakras were only generated by howling fist and elixir field but they don't directly generate chakra, they proc steel peak which gives the chakra. This means if you use elixir field and howling fist one after another you will lose a chakra for about 30 seconds. You only need 4 chakras and they are tied to greased lightning meaning that if you lose GL you lose all your chakras. However riddle of earth maxes your GL3 without needing earths reply.

Now even with all of this, DRG is still worse off. First of all, it takes a minimum of 4 GCDs to refresh BotD and this is with DRG being the slowest melee (no GCD enhancers). So you need minimum of 8 seconds (reaaaaally pushing it, you would need to live in the data centre to trust this, Id just say 9) on your timer to be able to keep it. However BotD isn't as powerful as GL3 no, but it also doesn't activate automatically like GL3. If for some reason you cock up and lose BotD right after using it, you won't be able to access GSK, the 4th combo enders or more powerful jumps for 15 seconds. You also won't be able to store eyes generated from the jumps.

As with my example, imagine losing GL3 due to forced downtime or bad rng (susanos jail) and losing 3 chakras along with GL3? This is a bit of a stretched metaphor but it is just for painting a picture why DRG is quite punishing. Finally DRG loses 70 potency on heavy thrust, 50 on chaos thrust and 90 for the combo enders so if you were to miss all of them (that's about 11 seconds of not being able to hit positionals) you lose 300 potency. For MNK, if you were to miss all positionals for a 11 second period (6-7 GCDs) you would lose about 80 for bootshine (crit modifiers n shit), 30 for twinsnakes, 40 for demolish, 40 for dragon kick, 40 for true strike and 40 for snap punch (please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't even remember the potency changes between now and heavensward) which adds up to 270 for 6 GCDs and if we were to follow this rotation 350 for 7 GCDs.

Point being, for a class that does some assjuice levels of DPS, DRG sure is harsh.

[SpeckledBurd]

Which job would you argue is more punished than MNK?

Dragoon currently gets completely screwed by Boss jumps because they lose their Dragon eyes and it takes ages to build them back, but Monk is the second most screwed of the Melee.

[TheRedMage]

Snip.

Thank you, that does sound horrendous and now I finally understand the plight of the DRGs.