MNK Feedback (long)

[silentwindfr]

snips

ok dude you did loose me here, most of the stuff your say are... holy cow, share the drugs you take.
riddle of fire making tornado kick more viable?
how making us slower by burning our gl stack while being slowed is viable? because it give damage? that the proof of our limited vision of the monk...

you accuse people here to lack skill, when most of us here point out that monk don't have a very high skill cap... actually from all the melee is the simplest of all. without positional of the monk it will be soo dumb to play than even my daughter of 7 years old can do it.

arm of destroyer viable when buffed? seriously? arm of destroyer is 50 potency... even full buff with riddle of fire you get +75% of potency... leading to a 87.5 potency for 130 tp usage.... when most of the other melee jobs have a 100 potency aoe:
- sam = fuga 100 potency for 140 tp
- nin = death blossom 110 potency for 100 tp
- drg = doom spike 130 potency for 120 tp

you do prove by your saying that you have no real knowledge of what you are talking about... getting big number don't make the gameplay viable, it make the balance around the bad gameplay working somehow...

what we did point it's the fact that even if the balance is...so so (because right now it's the case) it don't make the monk viable in raid situation, every jobs bring better tool than us... every jobs is bringing more to the table than us. and even in terms of dps we are not that superior anymore, even without take in account sam, we are barely stronger than nin, none of the change they can make will make us interesting they can make the nin or the dragoon be subpar to us, it will be still more interesting to bring either of them than us.

you have said in another post that if the core mechanic haven't evolved it's because they are solid, actually it's soo far of the truth, it's more the core mechanic was made in a way that make it hard to change it without reveal it's weakness... the grease lightning is the strongest asset of the monk and his shackles. we need to maintain this buff for be faster.... AND hit harder and its the core of the trouble without gl stack our jobs is weak... with it, it's barely good. instead to allows us to develop this core mechanic it did become our major flaws, it limited soo much the evolution of the jobs that they are to the point to not know what to do.

instead to do what was is needed... strips gl from the boost of damage, from the start it was the major flaws of the monk, this buff is needed to be added partially in trait and in fist of fire. for allows them to be able to develop news thing for the monk.
if we loose a gl that only speed us, we still hit hard, even if is slower it will make skill that consume gl stack less a punishement. it will have no unbalance us... it will have bring us to par with the other. only this will have bring us to our rightfull place...

instead this they have added chakra that did needed 2 expansion for be valid... god sake... why do we get the deep meditation to 62 when it was clearly needed below 60. because they don't know what to do outside try to make bad design work.

you are happy of the crappy toolkit we did receive that don't make it good, nor viable.. we are barely breathing out here... and nothing they can do for support this build will change this. they need to take a huge decision with the monk... to look at it seriously and admit it's a failure, you know what, i prefer they admit it and say they will work on it... than continue to support this thing.

[0Lime]

snip

Wouldn't Arm of the Destroyer also get buffed by Fists of Fire though?
Also, you seem to be confusing "viable" for "fun". Yes, if Tornado kicking into a snap punch does increase damage, then it is viable. A DPS increase is a DPS increase.

[Zohnax]

ranting

You really need to calm down and put some thought into your posts instead of regurgitating what you hear/see other people complaining about MNK when you yourself don't even have it at Lv. 70. That doesn't make for good feedback when you haven't even played it and logically invalidates your opinion. In addition, some of things you mentioned in your ranting, seeing as that you've acknowledge seeing my posts in threads elsewhere, this is where I return the favor of your words to others and say, you need to read what I posted especially since part of it has been paraphrased from what was said in the recent Live Letter.

I never said MNK is perfect; I have my own thread on my main problems and reasonable suggestions after playing MNK at Lv70 and taking it through dungeons, trials, and Omega multiple times.

And yes, the trade-off of 15k to the occasional near 30k Tornado Kick is worth having to rebuild GL from GL1 when you line-up Riddle of Fire/Internal Release/Ready Snap Punch.

[melkier33]

Great post, and agree with what you say for the most part? To those claiming double weaves, we don't have much to double weave, and it isn't necessary to do so unless you want to save a few seconds and even then your probably not getting an extra CD in the whole fight, so what's the point?

[Zohnax]

Great post, and agree with what you say for the most part? To those claiming double weaves, we don't have much to double weave, and it isn't necessary to do so unless you want to save a few seconds and even then your probably not getting an extra CD in the whole fight, so what's the point?

Because why not?

[enthauptet]

Monk never had enough oGCD skills for double weaving to even be relevant so I don't know how that even is considered to be a bonus of riddle of fire. We weren't like HW dragoon with tons of buffs and oGCD skills with animation locks to throw in where longer GCD helped.

[silentwindfr]

you didn't read me...

the whole buff monk get lead to +75% of damage
+75% = +5% from fist of fire, +10% from twin snake, +30% from grease lightning and +30% from riddle of fire.

50 potency + 75% = 87.5 of potency. what is the weakest of all aoe the melee and the whole game have. generally the the basic aoe is 100 potency, what we don't reach even under riddle of fire.

why tornado kick is not viable while under riddle of fire it's mostly, because it consume our 3 gl stack that increase our speed of 15% and riddle of fire reduce the attack speed of 15%. in normal time riddle of fire under 3 gl stack put us into our...normal attack speed... not boosted. if you consume your gl stack for do a tornado kick... it will make you be -15% faster than normal. leading your attack speed around 2.6+ meaning you will loose dps... since after your tonardo kick not enough to be at -15% of attack speed you will be only at +45% of damage instead of +75%...

use tornado kick only for get a big number is the dumbest move ever... you don't get boost of damage from it since it will take you between 21-23 second (9 gcd) for get back to full stack if you don't have perfect balance behind, even with perfect balance you will loose 3 gcd for get back to full power.

that why tornado kick is considered like a niche skill, because it's utility it's when you can't save your stack... not used as a powerfull strike, since behind you will nerf yourself.
just an example of what i means:
our combo potency is the lowest of the game when not under gl stack.
our best combo is 140>180>170
with gl stack (+45% of damage we gonna count fist of fire and twin snake) 203> 261 > 246.5 (710.5)
with riddle of fire (+75% of damage) 240 > 315 > 297,5 (852.5)

if you go around you will notice that our combo are not the strongest around from far:
SAM => 140>280>400 (820)
DRG => 150>240>440 (830)
NIN => 150>220>340 (710)

the only saving grace of the monk (and if you did notice nin too) it's our fast attack speed, that why get +30% damage buff but a -15% attack speed is totally bad for the monk.

[0Lime]

snip

Actually, I did read you, but thanks for answering my question, as I wanted to make sure.
Yes I'm aware of what GL does, I've played monk since 2.0. If the potency is high enough it would be a DPS increase to use tornado kick into a snap punch. Since snap punch is used right after TK, we're effectively only losing 2 stacks of GL, and if the potency is worth it, then it's a DPS increase.

I would love to test it myself, but I've yet to level MNK to 70.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually, I did read you, but thanks for answering my question, as I wanted to make sure.
Yes I'm aware of what GL does, I've played monk since 2.0. If the potency is high enough it would be a DPS increase to use tornado kick into a snap punch. Since snap punch is used right after TK, we're effectively only losing 2 stacks of GL, and if the potency is worth it, then it's a DPS increase.

I would love to test it myself, but I've yet to level MNK to 70.

A little too tired to develop a full sample size for this (requiring about at least five 5+minute tests each way in which I open normally and then sync my 4rd IR with 3rd RoF in order to use TK before Snap, and then continue for long enough as not to inflate TK, or continue without the TK), but you should be able to napkin math it.

INCREDIBLY SLOPPY NAPKIN MATH:
The Crit Multiplier nerf has badly hurt Internal Release contribution. Going to sloppily call it a 10% damage bonus. That brings us up to 90% maximum bonus with DK, Twin, GL3, IR, RoF. That would put Tornado Kick at 627.

If one has the perfect sync-up, such that Demolish is up placed 5 GCDs before TK, and DK and Twin 7 and 6, then you'd have your lowest potencies when they least matter, during the GL1 period, sacrificing 88 potency and .6 GCDs. GL2 period would sacrifice a relative 55ish potency (assuming base 20% crit by which to devalue the relative potency of Bootshine to a crit-possible value) and .3 GCDs. Disregarding sync, that combined .9 GCD would cost you around 270 potency.

Maybe a ~200 potency gain?

[Lastelli]

the only saving grace of the monk (and if you did notice nin too) it's our fast attack speed, that why get +30% damage buff but a -15% attack speed is totally bad for the monk.

Potencies and gcd speed are totally irrelevant here. There's so much more to a dps job toolkit, including buffs and ogcd abilities, that any consideration about your combo potency in a vacuum is just useless. Especially if you try to suggest that speed is the only thing that makes mnk damage good to somehow prove that rof is bad even though rof is a substantial dps increase. There's just no logic there.