Some interesting numbers on 4.0 BLM

[Kabooa]

B3 and F3 is a 3.5 cast and why would you cast B3 anyway? Their damage also can't get halved.

I was admittedly tired. Transpose F3 will come out to about -1.5 on all the scenarios listed then, though the MP tick waiting means F2 will likely not beat out the F2/Flare set up.

[Waliel]

So I checked everything from 2 to 10 mobs and this is what I got. Assuming no TC, as then everything goes out the window.

2: T4 B4 F3 F4 F4 Flare Flare
3-5: T4 B4 F3 Flare Flare
6-8: T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare
9+: T4 F3 F2 F2 Flare

The more SS you have, the more T4 B4 F3 F2 F2 Flare Flare will probably creep into other areas, because of T4 clipping.

[jamvng]

So I put some insight in this thread into practice yesterday. I ran Delta 1.0 a few times using Blizzard IV during every Umbral rotation, my last run ended at 3.8k.

Conversely, I ran it a few more times, this time only using Blizzard IV when Convert was ready for the 8 Fire IV rotation. I cast it a total of three times in the entire fight. My number ended at 4.3k on the final run.

I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

[Kabooa]

I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

The 3.0 rotation assumes at least 2k MP when moving into ice (F4 x 4 and F1 leaves a full MP black mage at 2400)

This means you B3, Thunder 3, Foul if it's up, then F3. In only the worst case scenarios do you enter with less than 14k MP ( which still keeps you comfortably within the 1-2k MP range). Foul not always being up in UI isn't an issue, because the rotation is much quicker so there is never a danger of overlap

[AxiomPITCH]

I'm curious. If you only did 4.0 rotation three times in the whole fight, did you always have Foul up on every UI 3.0 rotation? Wouldn't using 3.0 rotation so much cause Foul to not always be available?

Also, did you not encounter the issue where Thunder III was not refunded before you went back to AF from UI and left you with 120MP, causing you to wait for a mana tick before you could cast Thunder III/Foul in UI?

I did, but those scenarios are relatively rare. And I always try to watch my MP bar, as to try not to spend it down to not have enough to B3. If such scenarios do happen, I actually do default to the 4.0 rotation because of transpose UI. 0/120 MP > Transpose > T3 > B4 > F3, if I have to move, I have swiftcast saved for Fire III to save the foul oven.

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF. If you know you must move, then skip B4. If you are unsure that you must move, then skip B4. I also try to use it with sharpcast as well, the firestarter proc gives a bit of breathing room for fire iv casts. Every UI you must make the choice. As it has always been with BLM, knowing the content you're running and when cooldowns help you with your rotation the most is how you make the best out of it. But eh, on dummies just use 4.0.

Also yes, my fouls usually end all jumbled up if I deviate after the first 3.0 rotation after the first 4.0 rotation. But it is pretty negligible to cast it during AF if you absolutely have to, especially with the new patch incoming.

[jamvng]

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF. If you know you must move, then skip B4. If you are unsure that you must move, then skip B4. I also try to use it with sharpcast as well, the firestarter proc gives a bit of breathing room for fire iv casts. Every UI you must make the choice. As it has always been with BLM, knowing the content you're running and when cooldowns help you with your rotation the most is how you make the best out of it. But eh, on dummies just use 4.0.

So you're saying that 6xFire IV + Blizz IV should be done as long as you can get the full rotation in still right? But if you can't get 6XF4 in, then that B4 wasn't worth casting. Just seemed like you hardly did it if you only did Blizz IV 3 times in the fight. It'll probably be easier in 4.05 to do 6xFire IV with the new 2.8s cast.

[AxiomPITCH]

So you're saying that 6xFire IV + Blizz IV should be done as long as you can get the full rotation in still right? But if you can't get 6XF4 in, then that B4 wasn't worth casting. Just seemed like you hardly did it if you only did Blizz IV 3 times in the fight. It'll probably be easier in 4.05 to do 6xFire IV with the new 2.8s cast.

Yep, that's exactly right. With my current spell speed value (1,478, no food) I have exactly 2.8s cast time on Fire IV/Bliz IV. The upcoming changes will save us roughly 0.8-1.2s in each AF phase across the board depending on your current spell speed. The reason a modified 3.0 rotation (with the addition of foul basically) is "better" without convert is because it allows you to spend less time in UI and more time in AF, as well as more room to use every Thunder proc you get. Unless you can nuke with 6/8 fire ivs uninterrupted in the following AF phase, using T3 > B4 > Foul is just too much time spent in UI. Admittedly I'm still experimenting with the changes, but so far the less I cast Blizz IV, the more damage I do.

[Waliel]

The 4.0 rotation is better on paper, you must modify it to suit your needs for the duration of your next AF.

My papers still show 4x being better than 6x with the upcoming changes. Only time this is not true is when you can't cast Foul during ice.

[jamvng]

My papers still show 4x being better than 6x with the upcoming changes. Only time this is not true is when you can't cast Foul during ice.

That's because you are including Foul (which skews the PPS on 3.0 because it's a shorter rotation). # of Fouls do not change regardless of which rotation you do. You will always get the same amount. If you take away Foul, 4.0 > 3.0.

[Galvuu]

That's because you are including Foul (which skews the PPS on 3.0 because it's a shorter rotation). # of Fouls do not change regardless of which rotation you do. You will always get the same amount. If you take away Foul, 4.0 > 3.0.

This argument is flawed. I have a lengthy description as to why in the main Black Mage thread.
The bottom line is that Foul positioning in the rotation has an inherent cost, and this "let's just calculate the contribution apart" ignores it entirely.
Since neither the 3.X or 4.0 rotation lasts exactly 30s when you account for Foul in UI, you can't just separate it like that.

EDIT: though honestly it's not that important because it turns out the optimal solution ends up being something along the lines of "do 4.0 if you B4 in UI" which, well, you'd obviously do anyway. Also, the 3.X rotation people compare doesn't have two spells in UI (which it must). That's part of the implied premise that Foul will always magically end up there, which isn't really the case (especially for 3.X, you're bound to run out of Fouls).