Healer adjustment in 4.05

[Ghishlain]

All things wrong with this logic
1) idc how bad you are your basic combo plus a balance of any potency will be more damage then a whm.

Here's the best non-AST speedkill on Susano EX. Total DPS minus LB is 23,708.0. Let's also remove the WHM DPS for now (2,013) and include the DPS of the AST from the fastest kill on Susano EX (1,587) - changing our total to 23,282 total group DPS.

Assuming absolutely perfect RNG, this means you'd get an Expanded Balance every minute and Sleeve Draw also gives you Expanded Balance. With Celestial Opposition to extend one of those Expanded Balance another 10 seconds, this means you get a total of 100 seconds of 10% balance in a 120 second window - in other words you get an increase of 8.33333% DPS with this kind of uptime.

This means the total DPS gain from including an AST (skewed slightly due to the AST's boosted value already from the fight) would be 1,940.2 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 3,527.2)

Of course this would be a completely unrealistic expectation. A more conservative estimate might be getting two Expanded Balance which leads to 70s uptime out of 120s for 10% damage up - leading to an uptime of 5.83% or a DPS gain of 1,358.1 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 2,945.1).

For the sake of argument - let's aim for a single Expanded Balance within that two minute period. 40s uptime out of 120s for 10% damage up which leads up to a 3.33% or a DPS gain of 776.1 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 2,363.1). This uptime actually kinda matches up the average uptime of the fastest kills for Susano EX (#1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6 | #7 | #8 | #9 | #10)

Assuming the WHM in the non-AST kill listed above got the same Balance uptime as the example just above (3.33%), WHM's number would become 2,080. Then AST's contribution would be approximately 13% higher than WHM's.

Considering that I'm taking statistics from the pinnacle of the player base and that the average person slamming basic combo would basically be lower than the 50th percentile (and therefore basically do less than half the DPS these players do) - this is my excessively long winded way of saying "You're completely wrong".

2)yay now I have enough mp to rez people over and over and over and over till we meet enrage. On sch and ast I can rez maybe 3-4 times before I go into mana conservative mode and with that many deaths your prob going wipe anyway
3) after you perfected the fight there is no reason to be a whm cuz how your described whm is that it\\'s nothing more then a safety net

Seeing enrage and thus seeing all the mechanics of a fight means people can learn how to do that fight sooner. Nothing wrong with that. Once you've perfected the fight on WHM, you could make the switch to AST but then your strategies would potentially have to change to suit the new composition. Is that something you'd like to have happen? That's up to each individual group to decide.

The thing about SCH having the best healer DPS is actually more depressing if you look into it deeper. At 80 percentile, AST and WHM HPS are basically neck and neck at around 4k HPS, while SCH is sitting at 2.5k (I have no idea how it calculates shields into its calcs, so take it with a small grain of salt).

Coupled with the fact that WHM personal DPS on a dummy is higher than that of SCH, the best interpretation is that AST and WHM are doing the heavy lifting of healing because SCH isn't really as able to, leaving SCH to sit there spamming Broil II and thus accumulate a higher DPS in comparison than it otherwise would.

Healer balance is mainly down to the specifics of SCH/WHM changes on Tuesday, really.

As for the second point, when I say "easier", I don't really mean from a skill ceiling perspective. To be more specific, AST can set up Expanded Balance while healing with GCDs, while DPSing vs. healing with WHM is a mutually exclusive choice outside of things like Assize. This is largely in part because oGCDs, even at maximum clipping, only eat up around 1/3 - 1/5 of a GCD, while GCDs eat up 2.5 seconds. In addition, ASTs can barely clip, if at all, if they use a oGCD after the 2 second cast of Benefic or Benefic II, not just after Aspected Benefic.

Say you have a raid encounter where the incoming damage is low and you spend 80% of your GCDs DPSing and 20% of them healing; both healers won't really have much of an issue giving the raid DPS then, right? But if the incoming damage goes up (phase change, mechanic is failed, etc.) and now you're spending only 20% of your GCDs DPSing and 80% of them healing, WHM DPS is hurt way more than AST because AST can probably still find the time to put out Expanded Balance, but a WHM has no way to recover extra Stone IVs except *maybe* (s)he might find a way to spend 30% of their GCDs DPSing instead if they're wise with oGCDs. This is somewhat troubling for WHM in Savage because I can only presume that the healing requirements in the upcoming Savage will be higher than those of the Ex primals.

I agree with the first section fully. In terms of raid encounter I do agree too, though if people are dying there might not even be opportunities to use Expanded Balance since you may be in need of those Spires and Ewers at that point. I can see where you're going with mechanical fails leading to HP loss but Savage tends to be mechanical fails = death which is a whole other can of worms.

Also, I love the theory of "if you are a good healer, you are much more desirable than a bad one on a better class!". It is, of course, true. But sadly... people don't know if you are that better healer, and if you are excluded from joining a party from the get-go due to your class, you can't proof them you are. And sadly, that happens a lot. That's the core of the problem, really. You are 100% right, but if I can't proof it to people because they won't let me, there is no chance in hell that knowing this helps me any.

Ideally, if you're running into people that block due to meta, you don't want to associate with them anyway. Easier said than done but the best thing I'd do is just take destiny into your own hands and starts making your own mini group. Getting at least one or two tanks and be the healer and you'll be able to build your own PFs with your own rules. As long as you have the tanks filled, the rest falls into place relatively easily afterwards.

Just keep calm, don't be angry, and try to look at things as objectively as possible. I agree that the AST kit is powerful right now but the WHM kit isn't a slouch either - just takes effort to make the wheels turn. Hopefully we'll see some good oil being poured into the WHM gears come 4.05.

[Furious]

Here's the best non-AST speedkill on Susano EX. Total DPS minus LB is 23,708.0. Let's also remove the WHM DPS for now (2,013) and include the DPS of the AST from the fastest kill on Susano EX (1,587) - changing our total to 23,282 total group DPS.

Assuming absolutely perfect RNG, this means you'd get an Expanded Balance every minute and Sleeve Draw also gives you Expanded Balance. With Celestial Opposition to extend one of those Expanded Balance another 10 seconds, this means you get a total of 100 seconds of 10% balance in a 120 second window - in other words you get an increase of 8.33333% DPS with this kind of uptime.

This means the total DPS gain from including an AST (skewed slightly due to the AST's boosted value already from the fight) would be 1,940.2 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 3,527.2)

Of course this would be a completely unrealistic expectation. A more conservative estimate might be getting two Expanded Balance which leads to 70s uptime out of 120s for 10% damage up - leading to an uptime of 5.83% or a DPS gain of 1,358.1 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 2,945.1).

For the sake of argument - let's aim for a single Expanded Balance within that two minute period. 40s uptime out of 120s for 10% damage up which leads up to a 3.33% or a DPS gain of 776.1 DPS (AST total DPS contribution = 2,363.1). This uptime actually kinda matches up the average uptime of the fastest kills for Susano EX (#1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6 | #7 | #8 | #9 | #10)

Assuming the WHM in the non-AST kill listed above got the same Balance uptime as the example just above (3.33%), WHM's number would become 2,080. Then AST's contribution would be approximately 13% higher than WHM's.

Considering that I'm taking statistics from the pinnacle of the player base and that the average person slamming basic combo would basically be lower than the 50th percentile (and therefore basically do less than half the DPS these players do) - this is my excessively long winded way of saying "You're completely wrong".

I must be misunderstanding what you're saying, because what you proved in your analysis is that balance + ast is pretty much always more overall damage than whm can be given same relative skill between players in a group (and thus relatively uniform growth in dps between the ast/whm/total group dps). At best, the whm is nearly as good as the ast; at worst, it's nearly half the damage.

But, the quote you posted said "1) idc how bad you are your basic combo plus a balance of any potency will be more damage then a whm.", and you said he is completely wrong.. even though you proved him completely right? I feel like I'm either completely misunderstanding your post, or your misunderstood the person you quoted...

The only time a whm can compete with an ast on overall damage contribution in an 8-man group is if the healer's personal skill or gear (atleast in terms of damage contribution) is significantly higher than the group they are in.

[Ghishlain]

I must be misunderstanding what you're saying, because what you proved in your analysis is that balance + ast is pretty much always more overall damage than whm can be given same relative skill between players in a group (and thus relatively uniform growth in dps between the ast/whm/total group dps). At best, the whm is nearly as good as the ast; at worst, it's nearly half the damage.

But, the quote you posted said "1) idc how bad you are your basic combo plus a balance of any potency will be more damage then a whm.", and you said he is completely wrong.. even though you proved him completely right? I feel like I'm either completely misunderstanding your post, or your misunderstood the person you quoted...

The only time a whm can compete with an ast on overall damage contribution in an 8-man group is if the healer's personal skill or gear (atleast in terms of damage contribution) is significantly higher than the group they are in.

My interpretation of the comment I responded to was "anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo and getting any level of balance (10%, 20%, 30%) would allow the AST to contribute more DPS than WHM - period, no matter what, or how". I just proved that a well played WHM could out do the AST contributions.

The thing about AST is that the DPS they provide is a function of the party's player skill. If DPS skill is well... average, a well played WHM can exceed the DPS gained from playing AST at a lower skill level due to comfort level.

As a more direct example, a 1600 DPS WHM would be able to contribute more than a AST who gives 800DPS and can provide a Expanded Balance uptime of 33.3% on a 16,000DPS group (combined total DPS is 1,128).

To me, anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo all day every day would probably be less than a 50th precentile DPS on logs and effectively reducing the AST contribution through Balance by more than half in my above example.

[edit] Just to be clear - at the highest levels of play on the logs, AST's contribution is ridiculously high thanks to the skill level being played at that skill tier. AST at that tier will definitely outshine WHM (by a fair margin if you look at my previous post - 13% is nothing to scoff at).

However, for the average midcore raider, that "contribution" starts to enter a grey area. Hence my comment that it's important for people to play what they're comfortable with as they'll generally perform better on those roles.