4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

[Galvuu]

[I]snip.

What? No it's not.
I'm not arguing that a good player is right because he's a good player.

I'm using statistical data to prove my hypothesis.

I'm saying, on average, casters have less uptime than melee. And, to prove it, I linked you parses (aka actual raid data) that shows my points. Like thousands.
I suggested the 90% percentile so player skill (aka: casters play worse, or casters are harder to play at a competent level) isn't a factor.
For good players, on average, casters have less uptime, which validates my point.
Where is the "argument from authority" here? Where did I argue your character beyond underlining that you do not understand what you're talking about? Of course if you don't understand the phenomena, your opinion on it will have limited validity.
You're free to prove me wrong by proving experimental data which validates your position.

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

[Chronons]

EDIT: isn't what you described ad hominem anyway.

Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

[Ariyn]

Attacking a person as opposed to an argument is Ad Hominem, claiming experience as a qualifier for correctness is an Argument from Authority. It can lead credence, but not make it veridical.

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

[Chronons]

If you actually look at those logs you can blatently see that the entire group was built around buffing their top dps. The sam had balance for 3/4ths of the fight along with bard crit, trick attack, and emboldens. The BLM did not have all of that. Again, judging because you see a log showing numbers doesn't mean those numbers are accurate. They are what a class can do when everyone else pushes them forward.

But I do agree that skill plays the biggest factor in everything. A skilled ranged class knows they should be preplanning movement and always be casting. Melee doesn't have that down side but they are forced off of bosses much more often giving them higher levels of downtime over a skilled ranged.

I agree with you. I dont think those logs are indicative of the jobs balance, just a data point on uptime alone. Obviously padding goes on there, and while I am usually remiss to argue based on its data I wasnt the one to bring it up.

[jamvng]

snip

Uptime for melee vs casters is dependent on fight. Susano is a bad example because there are many mechanics that hit random DPS that cause loss of uptime. Lightning causes one person to move (and melee to lose uptime), stun causes a huge loss of uptime, and Gaol even more so.

Some mechanics may affect a caster more while others can affect melee more. For puddles in Susano, you can often hit the boss while dodging puddles as a melee without losing uptime, especially if party coordinates and baits the puddles properly. As a caster, if you get a puddle at a bad time, you have to cancel your cast (which basically means you wasted that whole period of casting with no DPS), and move (again no DPS while moving), before you can start casting again. On the other hand, mechanics that cause melee to leave boss range for extended periods of time (like crossing chasm for lightning prey) will lose melee more uptime.
(cont'd below)

[jamvng]

(cont'd)
There are other variables that affect these too like gap closers and Swiftcast, however different fights will affect uptime different for either roles.

My conclusion is that I don't agree with you that casters should inherently do less DPS, because uptime will vary on fights and who has more uptime will vary on fight, mechanics and party strategy (a party that babies a BLM for example, will have vastly more uptime than a party that doesn't).

[Osh1mA]

I am using the same data as you? Go look at the report CecMiller provided. It shows an example of a RDM having less uptime than the NIN. If you do look at more examples you will see that it is the case that it fluctuates based on personal skill, time for the fight, etc. Generally around that 1-2%.

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

How are this parses even proving your point? less than 1% of uptime result in 500+dps difference or what? Caster in SAMs party has less active time

[Sunako]

In fact heres the best BLM and SAM reports on the site for Susano.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/k94fg...pe=damage-done
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/V9kja...pe=damage-done

Did you notice blm and samurai encounter time is different. If encounter take longer % time of downtime(sword phase) is smaller and your uptime is higher. Longer the enounter is, higher your uptime is in susano if you are lucky enough and not get into stun by mechanics in susano. Thats why majority of best parses have like 8 - 9min enounter time and 6min speed kills have little lower personal dps.

[Chronons]

snip

I did, I dont think anyone could objectively prove which has greater uptime over all content without serious data crunching. I dont even think those logs service as any kind of grand proof of concept. They are just a data point suggesting that under certain circumstances a BLM can achieve higher uptime than a melee like SAM. Those circumstances vary and dont account for the vast dps difference between the two jobs, as I have said. However, if that base premise is true (that melee are greater effected by mechs) it would mean that making BLM=SAM or BLM>SAM in terms of dps would effectively make SAM obsolete.

[AlphaSonic]

I did, I dont think anyone could objectively prove which has greater uptime over all content without serious data crunching. I dont even think those logs service as any kind of grand proof of concept. They are just a data point suggesting that under certain circumstances a BLM can achieve higher uptime than a melee like SAM. Those circumstances vary and dont account for the vast dps difference between the two jobs, as I have said. However, if that base premise is true (that melee are greater effected by mechs) it would mean that making BLM=SAM or BLM>SAM in terms of dps would effectively make SAM obsolete.

SAM brings slashing debuff, if you don't have WAR you could bring a SAM instead of NIN. And if you are saying that you would always bring NIN, maybe NIN needs a nerf.