4.05 DPS Ranking Expectations

**Aysen** · 07-15-2017 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by MomoOG

snip

Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:

Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

**MomoOG** · 07-15-2017 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

Actual encounter for my post. The reason is simple. There has to be an order which means someone has to be last. As I said in my post. Everyone would get buffs. No nerfs. The difference between the dps of each class would go down. However, desireability has to be equal. Here are the features which determine the desireability value in a static for each class:Mobility: ability to cope with mechanics
Peak DPS: actual encounter dps
Party utility: what they being to the table

Maybe other things.

The sum of those things should be equal for each class making them all equally desireable. If I'm a bard and I do as much damage as a samurai but I additionally have a mp regen and party damage buff. Why bring a samurai. Pointless.

Edit: to answer your question about MCH, they are ranged, no cast bar dps. They can cope with mechanics better than a NIN.

Edit: thought of another factor, how easy it is to play therefore how much rng there is when you're trying to recruit one as well as reward for playing it well and dealing with everything else.

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

**Aysen** · 07-15-2017 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by MomoOG

Hmm encounter dps already takes most of that into consideration. What I mean by encounter dps is the parser dps you would get on actually doing the encounter. This inherently takes things into consideration like ability to cope with mechanics, peak dps, uptime and so forth. So with all that considered I don't see why the net dps of NIN should be higher than a MCH.

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

**MomoOG** · 07-15-2017 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

I can only speak from my personal experience but I play both MNK and MCH. MNK is actually my main so I don't think I'm biased here. I find MCH harder to deal with mechanics compared to MNK. With MCH I have to keep a much closer eye on my bullets, heat gauge, and cool downs and as a result have less attention available to see what mechanics are being thrown out. Might just be me. Might just be MNK vs MCH comparison. But I don't find the whole ranged easier to deal with mechanics over melee thing to always be true.

**Elnidfse** · 07-15-2017 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

*shrug* I have them getting buffed up to RDM levels. Maybe they deserve to be higher. I personally don't think so. I think playing as a MCH is easier than playing as a NIN simply because they cope with mechanics better and therefore can perform more consistently. If their dps is buffed to be on par with a RDM, then they would be an attractive party member.

With any mechanic that involves moving? Potentially. But unless you've been in those shoes it's impossible to explain to you just how much of a pain in the ass things like gaols, stuns, and stops ruin your entire rotation and CD management. That "cope with mechanics better" simply isn't true. We deal with movement sure, but even with something like Zurvan, melee will find times to maximize their uptime and still do respectable damage. You seem to be putting an impossible level of focus on the coveted 100% uptime without regards to the complexity of the jobs or your susceptibility to things that aren't just flat movement. It's also wrong besides.
In a perfect world a MCH/BRD who maintained 100% DPS on their supposed "100% uptime" should deal slightly less (including raid contribution) than a melee who has anywhere from 80-90% uptime. But that's not the case right now, now is it?

I was referring to a hypothetical situation wherein two equally skilled players are playing RDM and BLM respectively

In this hypothetical situation we completely ignore that SMN has a raise. And if you're treating your RDM as an FTS you're going to hit enrage regardless.

Also, casters are ruthlessly punished by mechanics. That's why their average damage per hit is higher than the average damage per hit for melee classes. This is by design by the game developers. Just look at the potency values and you'll see. Fine, not convinced?

This is also using an assumption that casters, BLM in particular can perform better on SSS or other immobile targets than for this example given the current rankings, Samurai. But this simply is not true. And Samurai also deal with movement a lot better than SMN. Both of them have no utility, and yet SMN damage is massively undertuned in comparison. At BEST they can compete with being worse than a SAM. And in action the gap between the two widens dramatically. Never you mind the complexities involved in playing BLM th a level of effectiveness that can compete.

Again you put a lot of flak on the ranged clause and caster "advantage" in general in reference to ranged. As if the option to fire from afar closes the gap between ranged and melee when that simply isn't the case. None of what you say is the case of the game or the state that it's in. Ranged that aren't RDM are outclassed by non DRG melee in the fights that we have access to.

**Nite83** · 07-14-2017 09:07 PM

Why the hell do people want rdm nerfed over a heal and a raise? If you HAVE to use them constantly which you shouldn't its a dps loss. I'd rather see rdm lose the heal as opposed to a damage nerf.

**Furious** · 07-14-2017 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nite83

Why the hell do people want rdm nerfed over a heal and a raise? If you HAVE to use them constantly which you shouldn't its a dps loss. I'd rather see rdm lose the heal as opposed to a damage nerf.

Because you can choose to use them if they are needed, whereas not having them you can't. Their existence is enough.

I would definitely not rather see the heal gone, it is a vitally important part of the job's identity (from FF in general).

**AxiomPITCH** · 07-14-2017 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Nite83

Why the hell do people want rdm nerfed over a heal and a raise? If you HAVE to use them constantly which you shouldn't its a dps loss. I'd rather see rdm lose the heal as opposed to a damage nerf.

Of course it's a dps loss. It's just the fact of the matter, they are a powerful job with an easy playstyle with free instant damage through Fleche, Dualcast, and Contre Sixte as well as mobility from Dualcast, Corps, and Displacement. The icing on the cake is that they have the ability to recover when no one else can. I dunno why people use this argument, SMN has a raise and a (useless) heal and look where it is. On pure principle alone, RDM should approximately equal SMN.

**Aysen** · 07-15-2017 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

Of course it's a dps loss. It's just the fact of the matter, they are a powerful job with an easy playstyle with free instant damage through Fleche, Dualcast, and Contre Sixte as well as mobility from Dualcast, Corps, and Displacement. The icing on the cake is that they have the ability to recover when no one else can. I dunno why people use this argument, SMN has a raise and a (useless) heal and look where it is. On pure principle alone, RDM should approximately equal SMN.

I would agree with you if RDM didn't have Dualcast but it does which makes it a highly mobile class with a party dps buff. SMN has devotion but it's 1 person and it's hard to control who gets it.

Edit: and it's easy to play so it's easier to find a "good" red mage.

**AxiomPITCH** · 07-15-2017 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by Aysen

I would agree with you if RDM didn't have Dualcast but it does which makes it a highly mobile class with a party dps buff. SMN has devotion but it's 1 person and it's hard to control who gets it.

Edit: and it's easy to play so it's easier to find a "good" red mage.

You're right honestly, if we're weighing both jobs based on their support capabilities, RDM should be even lower than SMN in single target damage. But I really don't see that happening, especially with all the die hard fans of the job running around crying that the rest of us are asking to be equal, that coupled with the fact that RDM's aoe is a bit lackluster in comparison to either BLM or SMN means if they were nerfed considerably, there would be no reason to bring it in anything but 8-man progression raids for all of the utility and forgiveness. After progression you could just swap to SMN or BLM for more damage. It would be like 3.0 WHM and AST all over again.

And I'm gonna be honest here, if I were the one making the decision, I'd nerf RDM simply because it's borderline braindead easy. Even if you are a RDM and you want to play it better than the average RDM, you can't, as the skill floor and the skill ceiling are basically in the same spot. I really don't know how SE can design something like 4.0 SMN, and then turn around and make RDM what it is. As a BLM main I'm generally happy with where we are at the moment. SMN however, I give my greatest condolences to all of those who play and enjoy that job. It's really a shame actually. I have good friends who have mained SMN since 2.0 release day, who dropped it completely after the new changes in favor of RDM. "Why even play SMN when I can just play RDM. A quarter of the effort for more result."

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