The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[Lildragora]

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Simplicity should mean less damage, utility, or both. Complex jobs vs Simple jobs usually work this way in games for the sole fact that the harder a role is to fulfill entirely the more rewarding the experience is. In this case, more complexity means more damage output / utility to use. While someone can certainly max out a simplistic job, and even out perform other roles a maxed out more complex role should provide a higher level of output. I have not played RDM myself but if it is as simple as people are leading me to believe, it definitely should not be as strong as the other roles.

[TarynH]

Simplicity should mean less damage, utility, or both. Complex jobs vs Simple jobs usually work this way in games for the sole fact that the harder a role is to fulfill entirely the more rewarding the experience is.

Whatever happened to people enjoying simple, fun AND rewarding experiences? Have we become so jaded that we need to cry foul every time we see someone else get slight enjoyment out of life?

I'm in the "leave RDM alone" crowd. I'd rather see other jobs become "less complex" and more fun, than one fun and simple job be torn completely apart because of arbitrary views like the above.

[Lildragora]

Whatever happened to people enjoying simple, fun AND rewarding experiences? Have we become so jaded that we need to cry foul every time we see someone else get slight enjoyment out of life?

I'm in the "leave RDM alone" crowd. I'd rather see other jobs become "less complex" and more fun, than one fun and simple job be torn completely apart because of arbitrary views like the above.

Nothing happened to fun and enjoyment. Who said a simple job is not fun or rewarding in it's own right. However if something requires more effort put in, it should be more rewarding whether it is personal satisfaction (such as a career, clearing savage, ect), more damage output, or more ways to handle situations that come up. Period. But you might be the type for participation trophies so im not sure what to tell you.

[TarynH]

Nothing happened to fun and enjoyment. Who said a simple job is not fun or rewarding in it's own right. However if something requires more effort put in, it should be more rewarding whether it is personal satisfaction (such as a career, clearing savage, ect), more damage output, or more ways to handle situations that come up. Period. But you might be the type for participation trophies so im not sure what to tell you.

Definitions on what is effort and what is rewarding are highly subjective. I mean, you could sleep your way to a promotion. It's still effort. To some, clearing savage modes are rewarding. To others, just spending an hour a day on the game is rewarding. Either way, RDM staying as it is, has no bearing on any of this. Especially to someone who admittedly has not played the job. Pushing buttons differently from someone else pushing buttons, is completely irrelevant to the discussion of complexity meeting reward. Complexity should be with the content, and the player's ability to perform in said content. Not how fast they spam the buttons on their hotbar. And I will be the last person to ask for a nerf to content.

What you see as a "simplistic" job, is actually a very fluid situational job as well as a solid DPS. A job that can jump into two other areas of utility as a stopgap when things go wrong, or even when they're just going okay. A job, that if the player puts in a little extra effort, can add complexity in its support utility. They've made a rather effective and efficient "jack of all trades, but master of none" RDM for FFXIV, provided you want to give that extra effort. The simplicity of one aspect of it, allows it to jump into a utility role on the fly.

People want to tear it down because of those extracurricular abilities, and the fact that their DPS role is too powerful for how "simple" it is. When, in fact, you have people in this very thread claiming other jobs supersede it in all aspects except raising. Raising?! Of all things... Heaven forbid a job that could possibly save a duty from failing. You have others wanting to take the utility away (cure/raise) effectively making it a fast-cast weaker version of BLM. But then nerfing the damage on top of that. When does it stop? When RDM is that loljob that nobody wants in content? That's fun! FFXI anyone?

What I find "rewarding" about this "simple job," is what I get out of it from putting in some extra effort. Jumping in there and helping out the party. RDM is only "simple" on the surface level. The complexity of the job lies with the player's ability to read the flow of battle, and know when to throw in some utility. Maybe even to keep something going long enough to pull off a win in the end.

So I see RDM as simple and fun, but at the same time complex in situations. Either way, it is very rewarding to me, from the effort I put into it while playing it.

[Lildragora]

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In this case, the context I speak of is job performance. Notice I said personal satisfaction as a reward for career however I wouldn't call sleeping your way to a promotion effort that's called luck or bias. They were examples of what personal satisfaction could be. Typically in an MMO, personal satisfaction is meaningful job growth and again typically in games more complex roles fill holes better in more meaningful ways.

I never said RDM was a simple job, just stated that it might be simple as others lead me to believe. I also stated only that it shouldn't be as strong as it is given what information I have received. Never talked about specific nerfs. In fact I didnt tear it down at all, just said it shouldn't be as strong given how simple it appears, again based on feedback I receive.

So really, you dont have to make this seem personal. because it isn't. Glad you find enjoyment it, as well as all the others. However, complex content is not enough for everyone. There should be more complex jobs to play that offer better rewards for playing well. There should also be simpler jobs and simpler content, its about balancing. However that doesn't change that something simpler than another much more complex and punishing role should perform at similar levels. Whether its damage, utility, mobility, resource management, ect. It should not be the case, just like sleeping to a promotion shouldn't be the case; unfortunately it is. Im sorry you see spamming buttons fast as complexity too.

personally RDM seems fun, I like the looks and the playstyle and dont have any personal gripes with it as you mentioned I have not leveled it. But for all it brings it does not seem like it pays for what it brings in a sufficient manner as compared to other things. and now I quote the original portion of my argument

Edit:
"Simplicity should mean less damage, utility, or both. Complex jobs vs Simple jobs usually work this way in games for the sole fact that the harder a role is to fulfill entirely the more rewarding the experience is. In this case, more complexity means more damage output / utility to use. While someone can certainly max out a simplistic job, and even out perform other roles a maxed out more complex role should provide a higher level of output. I have not played RDM myself but if it is as simple as people are leading me to believe, it definitely should not be as strong as the other roles."

Utility could be considered resource management as that directly affects your ability to perform, although I have never used the term this way before and something like mentioned below with a MP cost increase on Raise is a great example of what im talking about. If the job does bring great damage, great utility, great aoe, or a combination of, something like increased MP costs for an easier to play job is a way to increase complexity as you have to manage more resources while providing a easier gameplay by design while it also reduces the ability to sustain high performance where as another job might have lower MP costs but a higher skill requirement allowing for a higher sustained playtime. My whole argument was based on simplicity and complexity verse role performance. RDM was just the example I used.

[TarynH]

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Personal? I'm not Liam Neeson. I'm not going to come after you with a very particular set of skills. This isn't personal at all; even after your jabs. I just think you should try the job out, before hopping on the bandwagon.

On the subject of personal, though... Personal satisfaction could mean those things, to you. However, they don't apply to the masses. Others can enjoy whatever they like in MMOs. "Typically," what I enjoy more in an MMO, second to having fun, is innovation. Making the same old, feel new, despite having recycled mechanics. Most MMOs are boring four-role games that hardly hold any interest without content. And most don't even offer content other than loot fests. The two FF MMOs have strayed slightly from the "job growth" aspect, and focused more on character growth. But that's another discussion entirely, and one that many argue vehemently against FFXIV being a character/story-driven game.

As far as RDM is concerned, it feels like no other job that is in the game at this point. That's what I like about it. It's different. People tend to not like things that are different, and we get threads like this. But like when they added COR, BLU, and later DNC to FFXI... It was the same old game, but those jobs made it feel fresh. When they added DRK, AST, MCH, and even SAM to this game, they all felt the same (to me) as other jobs. Namely WAR, WHM, BRD and MNK. If RDM is "simple," though, then I hope they make more "simple" jobs. Because this simple little RDM is simply fun.

[Lildragora]

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I dont recall taking any jabs at you, only that it seemed like you were a bit personally attacked by my comment. If not, great you're not a snowflake!

But I seriously would like you to find me a majority group of people playing ANY MMO game that say personal satisfaction in game is not related to meaningful character growth. I find the same things you mentioned fun as well, however at the end of the day I want my character to improve as do most people, otherwise why are you not level 1. You level up to do the innovative activities, or access new content or to even reach areas locked behind certain levels. Since I used examples of what could be, and not what I find enjoyable (although I do find those things enjoyable) we are really saying the same thing for the most part.

Thats GOOD that it's unique and doesn't feel like anything else. That means SE did a good job making its playstyle appealing. That doesn't correlate into how it should perform respective to other jobs in terms of skill floor and ceiling and what they bring to the table or how their resources are used.

At the end of the day I dont think we will agree so I will have to respectfully disagree with most of your argument albeit some good points are made.

Edit: I did poke fun at the idea of you being the type that accepts participation trophies, which I can understand that being a jab.

[Galvuu]

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Preface: I never campaigned for RDM (or SAM) nerfs (though I'm raising my eyebrows at NIN).

The reason why RDM is "easy" is twofold; first, you just can't mess RDM up.
What even is messing RDM up? Getting 100/100 mana? I mean, you still do your melee combo+finisher. You just lose the guaranteed proc (which will probably set your next melee combo back by one gcd). The same is true if the mana is correctly misaligned and you use the wrong finisher (you're at 81/83 and Verflare instead of Verholy). That's like so minimal. One gcd of slightly less damage. You're not even guaranteed to lose a finisher over the entire fight off this. And you still have 20% change that your mistake will be inconsequential anyway.
Second, compounding that is the fact your ogcds are best used on cooldown except for Manafication (which just has you look at a number whenever and then use it when you get 80/80+), you don't even really need to plan ogcd usage in a fight with RDM.
Things are up? Use them. This is for every fight and every mechanic. I just "wing it" with RDM and do fine. The job inherently does not require planning, especially since most cds are best used as soon as they come off cd (except Embolden in a static, you'll ant to align that with the rest, but this is true for any utility tool any job has, so).

This is not true for BLM at all. I need to think about where I'll use which cds. I need Ley Lines down for the Levin Bolts so I can Between the Lines back and forth to the correct side of the arena for Susie, I need Triple up for the cloud+knockback in case I get targeted, I need Swiftcast up for the puddles during the first gaols. In Lak EX, on p2, I need to start with the 3.X rotation because she'll open with Divine Doubt and I won't have time to do the 4.0 one, but then I need to execute a 4.0 after a second 3.0 one so I buy time for the Foul clock. It can't be right away, because I need to refresh my Vril.
There's just layers upon layers of cd usage and rotation planning I have to do, or I'll have a bad time. RDM doesn't have to deal with none if this stuff.

I don't think there's an issue with it, either. Sometimes I'm tired, I'm sick or just had a bad day and pick RDM up. It's plug and play, I don't think much, I do lots of damage, Corps-a-Corpse and Displacement (and Riposte) have some of the coolest looking animations, and I just have a good time all around.
But, objectively speaking, in virtue of the job's design, it is a simple job. Whatever "complexity" I need to deal with RDM I also have to deal with other jobs, but those tend to have layers of planning and decision making tacked onto them if I want to execute them perfectly.
And it's fine, really x)
But it's also unquestionably easier, as far as planning/decision-making goes.

[Ramath]

Whatever happened to people enjoying simple, fun AND rewarding experiences? Have we become so jaded that we need to cry foul every time we see someone else get slight enjoyment out of life?

I'm in the "leave RDM alone" crowd. I'd rather see other jobs become "less complex" and more fun, than one fun and simple job be torn completely apart because of arbitrary views like the above.

You are fight. People are so caught up with complaining that they forget how to enjoy things. It's quite disgusting, to be honest.