Why Summoner Needs Help

[Angry_Evil]

Summoner doesn't actually have anything to contend with ANY aspect of Black Mage, single target, AoE or otherwise, and it is with this topic that I hope SOMETHING can be addressed.

Even on dummy top summoner does more dps that blm lol(or at least comparable) Problem with this is - the moment mechanics go into play - BLMs are losing a lot of their dps cause they need to move. So in actual combat good SMN should show similar numbers to good BLM. Which is actually a problem in itself and shows how broken BLMs are too. Obviously average RDM can out dps both good blms and smns.

[Neela]

But it's pointless to discuss potencies anyway, what matter is what DPS smn making compared to BLM. And it is comparable.

I agree to nearly everything you said above ^^

the point behind all the complains is just that blm/rdm are easier to play/reach those numbers - some smns already proved they could compare their dmg at least with blm maybe even with rdm. its just the majority can't archive that same amount any longer without putting a hugh portion of extra effort into it -> complaining is so much easier you know...

but even if we can reach an on par level its way harder for smn than ever before - you can't deny this fact - at least in the manner of "balancing" they should adjust the skill/rota synergy here... I don't think it matters on the potecy itself they are okay-ish if you don't mess up or lock your skills out yourself, but the punishment for doing so is a bit hard atm... ^^

[Angry_Evil]

the point behind all the complains is just that blm/rdm are easier to play/reach those numbers - some smns already proved they could compare their dmg at least with blm maybe even with rdm. its just the majority can't archive that same amount any longer without putting a hugh portion of extra effort into it -> complaining is so much easier you know...

Yeah putting more effort to show worse numbers than "no effort" RDM surely doesn't sound fair. I just hope we won't need to wait till 4.2 for next ruin3 buff lol...

but even if we can reach an on par level its way harder for smn than ever before - you can't deny this fact - at least in the manner of "balancing" they should adjust the skill/rota synergy here... I don't think it matters on the potecy itself they are okay-ish if you don't mess up or lock your skills out yourself, but the punishment for doing so is a bit hard atm... ^^

What square can do with smn is very limited. I personally think smn needs full revamp from ground up, to fix this "identity crisis" which was always there and still there. But realistically most they can do - change atherflow again and buff ruin3 potency to like 170-180.

[KroLeXz]

SMNer is way to punishing when they die, doesn't even compare.

[Koyuki38]

I don't think there was any identity crisis with the summoner. That's just a DD with multiple sources of damages. They removed dots just to make dots tracking a little bit easier, and now we are more on CD tracking than dot tracking.
The job just needs some adjustments, not any rework.

[Angry_Evil]

I don't think there was any identity crisis with the summoner. That's just a DD with multiple sources of damages. They removed dots just to make dots tracking a little bit easier, and now we are more on CD tracking than dot tracking.
The job just needs some adjustments, not any rework.

People were talking about identity crisis for YEARS now. No amounts of "some adjustments" will fix clunky unresponsive pets and overall poor design of the job. Adjustments can make it less of a trainwreck than it is now but I dunno how much more of this I can tolerate tbh...

SMNer is way to punishing when they die, doesn't even compare.

Explaining to people why they need to wait 60s after every wipe sucks too. But CDs ARE REFRESHED AFTER WIPES NOW. ...yeah I know...
At this point I think they just need to give us 3 atherflow stacks by default lol.
Cause I really don't see how SE can make smn less punishing or if they are even willing to.

[Neela]

im not saying its perfect now but for me without the dots but the enkindle cd reduce and devotion idea (not that the skill is great atm) are good thoughts to make it more pet-related... they surely can improve on that but this feels more smn for me than that dot-thing before : /

[Gallus]

The only thing I agree about SMN is the fact that it's too hard to pull good DPS with it.

How to make it less punishing:

DWT - Change it so instead of a stance that lasts 15 seconds, it allows for the next 6 Ruin III to cost no mana. Deathflare still finishes the stance. Remove the 10% damage bonus from DWT and slightly buff the base damage of either Bio III and Miasma III or Ruin/Ruin II/Ruin III (or else this new stance could be used to spam indefinite Ruins I with 10% damage bonus). I'd really like this change because clipping your Ruins III in the middle of DWT with enkindle, rouse, aetherpact and shadow flare is clunky as hell and makes me mad every time. You have to either give up on one or two Ruins III or let those buffs sit until your DWT is over.

Bahamut - Just make it AA like the pet independently. Saving your whole arsenal for this thing (which is what you are forced to do now) turns SMN into a "Gonna summon Baha now hopefully nothing screws me over for the next 20 seconds or I'm gonna meet the very bottom of the parser at the speed of the light.

Do this and SMN is automatically on par with SAM and RDM in terms of being zero punishing (in fact, even with these changes SMN would still be slightly more punishing due to having stuff like Shadow Flare, Rouse or Bahamut which can be derp casted in a phase which is either not required or right before a downtime).

[Angry_Evil]

DWT - Change it so instead of a stance that lasts 15 seconds, it allows for the next 6 Ruin III to cost no mana. Deathflare still finishes the stance. Remove the 10% damage bonus from DWT and slightly buff the base damage of either Bio III and Miasma III or Ruin/Ruin II/Ruin III (or else this new stance could be used to spam indefinite Ruins I with 10% damage bonus). I'd really like this change because clipping your Ruins III in the middle of DWT with enkindle, rouse, aetherpact and shadow flare is clunky as hell and makes me mad every time. You have to either give up on one or two Ruins III or let those buffs sit until your DWT is over.

This is pure nonsense. Are you one of this summoners who almost never use ruin 3 outside of dwt?
Punishment everybody is talking about on smn goes from wasting your atherflow stacks - huge punish, losing your bahamut buildup and stacks on death = even more punish, mana problems when after death u need to resummon garuda etc, and if u died with everything on CD- your dps is done for. Reworking of dwt won't help with any punishment mechanics SMN has now....

[Gallus]

This is pure nonsense. Are you one of this summoners who almost never use ruin 3 outside of dwt?

I'm not sure from where you gather I don't cast Ruin III outside of DWT. The 6 next Ruin III costing no mana instead of DWT being a 15 second stance is because the latter makes SMN more vulnerable to random mechanics, disables, phases where movement is required and random screw ups in general.