A tank's concern

[ManuelBravo]

... it was three in a row, if it was something I was doing wrong, and it's comforting to know I seem to be okay.

Your fine, if you get trolls like that their a dime a dozen. If I were you I would give them a fair warning. 3 wipes your out. If DPS on your side otherwise refuse to tank and let them kick you to avoid penalty. They need tanks more than healers right now anyways. When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

[KalinOrthos]

When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

I might have to start doing that if it continues. Maybe not even when we go down, but when I have to start spamming Clemency on myself and the DPS.

[Furious]

Bad healers. The good ones know how to balance DPS with healing requirements.

If you have to use Clemency for something other than a true emergency or to activate your own Divine Veil, that usually means either the healer is shitty or you at least believe that they are.

Not really true.

In AoE healers will absolutely shit on PLD dps if the pld can stay alive. WHMs in particular, but all of the healers, do insane aoe dps if they are allowed to cast their aoe spells (or spread their dots in the case of scholar) - in many cases the healer will beat atleast one or both of your DPS if it isn't sustained for too long (its also very mp-costly). In single target, the healer should really be healing while dpsing.

If you get a healer that is spamming holy or gravity in aoe situations as a pld, thank your lucky stars and go about keeping yourself alive with clemency and riot blade in between aoe damage to let them keep aoeing. Clemency is also massive enmity, about equal with flash every cast if you are missing enough HP. Consider the healer's aoe as "your damage" that you are spending mana on as you cast clemency to replace "their healing".

To put it into numbers, total eclipse hits for around ~1300 or so, while gravity can easily hit for 3000 or more on the first target. Id prefer it if the AST was casting gravity than casting benefic while I total eclipse. They can supplement your clemencys with ogcd heals that don't cost dps if you aren't keeping up with the incoming damage.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

[Feidam]

healers do more damage than tanks, so the dps meta says the paladin should focus on healing.

Healers and tanks both need to get over the idea of they NEED to dps. Throw dps as able but only as a secondary option. White mage with holy is an exception as that stun is good mitigation. Too many healers and tanks are only there to pew pew.

[KalinOrthos]

Healers and tanks both need to get over the idea of they NEED to dps. Throw dps as able but only as a secondary option. White mate with holy is an exception as that stun is good mitigation. Too many healers and tanks are only there to pew pew.

but the meta tho

[Furious]

What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

That's not what you said. If a healer is spamming aoe then you can freely use clemency and the world will be a better place. The healer won't respond to your health bar if it doesn't fall low enough, and thus the group's dps is higher. It doesn't necessarily need to be organised. In fact, the more we can encourage the behavior, the better. Paladin aoe dps remains lacking even with the addition of total eclipse, but the addition of the trait that halves mana costs of our abilities along with making us immune to casting interruption means that clemency has become an actual effective recovery tool that the paladin can use to sustain themselves through aoe pulls to allow the healer to dps.

This isn't something that only organised groups can do; it is something that we should aim to promote as the meta for paladins in dungeons. Paladins can tank and heal at the same time effectively, in aoe pulls where they lack damage there is no reason they shouldn't do both.

[Spartan926]

Oh good, so can I ask you this question: Like every tank I get matched with on whm in the DF pulls 3-4 groups of mobs at once and uses no cooldowns, doesn't even look at the dps composition and thus requires me to spam every heal I have just to keep him alive. Are these tanks just bad, because, you know, I'd at least like to do something other than spam heals and not have virtually all the burden of keeping the party alive fall on me because the tank is feeling macho. And I have no problem with 2 packs with tanks who don't drop like a wet paper doll in a tornado, as long as I have some breathing room to have a little fun too. That's all I ask, thanks.

And yes, I am salty about this. Probably too much so. I'm not directing it at you, personally, just venting some steam.

I would like to address this from the tanking perspective. First off, I would ask in what dungeons does this happen? I've seen it myself when groups will ask me to do big pulls in the 50/60 roulettes. (Can't speak for 70 yet.) I would say the tank IS bad if you request they not do the massive pulls and/or the party comp isn't right for AOE things. As a tank I would like to know what would you prefer we do in those situations and under what circumstances a massive pull would be considered a good idea?

For example: If we have two BLM's or two RDM, or a mix of both. Would that be a good party to pull a mass with because of the potential AOE Damage? Or would it still be best to stick with only a few?

[Feidam]

but the meta tho

I know right. We, my normal group, sat down last night and actually took a look at how hard the new mobs are hitting. The small trash auto attack for 1k non crit and the large trash hit from 3 to 5k. Start getting Crits and direct hits and boom tank drops like a rock. The dungeons are not the same as they were at endgame HW. At least not yet. The my deeps meta that is lingering is causing more harm than good in the average duty queue.

[Feidam]

I would like to address this from the tanking perspective. First off, I would ask in what dungeons does this happen? I've seen it myself when groups will ask me to do big pulls in the 50/60 roulettes. (Can't speak for 70 yet.) I would say the tank IS bad if you request they not do the massive pulls and/or the party comp isn't right for AOE things. As a tank I would like to know what would you prefer we do in those situations and under what circumstances a massive pull would be considered a good idea?

For example: If we have two BLM's or two RDM, or a mix of both. Would that be a good party to pull a mass with because of the potential AOE Damage? Or would it still be best to stick with only a few?

Depends on gear of all involved. Dps, tank and healer. Had a tank last night in the 63 dungeon mass pull and constantly drop grit. Even with grit and cool downs she was a mana sponge. Without grit it was a night mare to keep her up. I did but it wasn't easy.