Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Alleo]

@Alleo: Soloing PotD is done with sustain potions now and probably every dps job can beat that with them.
SMN just don't have the unfair advantage anymore to be the only dps to fulfill tank/healing requirements on literally everything open world.

How often can you use that potions? Because unlike other jobs we simply have no real sufficient healing skill. And unlike other jobs we also had no great self defense other than Titan egi. (I am not sure how we fulfilled healing requirements?) And instead of the others getting better they nerfed our solo abilities to the ground. Titan is simply not really useable anymore if you also want to use all of your lvl 70 skills..How that is suddenly fair is beyond me.

[Ariomi]

Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise. Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

[Ariomi]

But all of them (except SMN) lose way more single target dps while doing AoE.

You may declare it a disadvantage, but there are fights were having the choice of AoE/single target only applied to oGCDs instead of GCDs is an advantage.

Samurai has an aoe Ogcd that is 800 potency. Nothing about that skill loses single target damage. Ninja's hellfrog medium is the same way. Only a 400 dps gain per target hit. Katon is an 140 dps gain over raiton if you hit only two adds. Black Mage's Foul is just another 650 potency per add on a thirty second timer.

Summoner used to be able to make up for this as they previously had Aoe spells they could use at any point in the fight to supplement it if everything was on cooldown. With the nerfs to bane, it's better off hard casting your dots on everything then just painflare x3 and deathflare and all your aoes are gone for an entire minute. Wonder how hard it is to outdps a class in Aoe damage when everything is on cooldown. Summoner lost Miasma 2 (Aoe dot) Blizzard 2 (50 potency aoe) Shadow flare on command (25 potency aoe dot) lost 30 damage per tick on dots then bane doubles down on that and makes it weaker.

Blm just laughs at Summoner, flares and fouls. Nukes the adds way harder then summoner ever could. Deathflare is 400 potency every minute. Foul is 650 potency every 30 seconds. Both Aoes. If Summoner's cooldowns were shorter, they might be able to keep up. But every class got stronger Aoe's while the majority of Summoner's didn't. Take a level 60 summoner into A9s for me. tell me how well the Aoes go now that Summoner doesn't have raging strikes, Spur, Miasma 2 or Blizzard 2 and deathflares weakened state.

[remiff]

Summoner nerf is real,
we loses spell speed buff,
we loses so much potency on all spell,
we loses dots,
garuda auto-attack nerfed,
sustain is gone :'(,
summoner miss aetherstack-- loses 1 min of rotation , summoner dead ''rip dps, rip mana ''' .
devotion is really bad.
smn is very weak .

[Dualgunner]

No, Red Mage's Main advantage is having a rez that is either instant (swiftcast) or near instant Dualcast rez. Rez can be done while almost completely mobile and doesn't need swiftcast. Also, using swift cast won't proc dual cast. You can cast something then swiftcast and do two verraise.

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Summoner's dot's are 80 potency per tick btw. Summoner's pet does around 100 potency of a summoner every three seconds, and summoner's have ruin spells. At best, Summoner's getting around 430 potency per 3 second tick. (Shadow Flare Dots pet and ruin 4) Red Mage does 540 potency in the same time using just Jolt 2 and Veraero.

Jolt 2 and Veraero combined are 4.74 seconds going off my GCD. The fact that over a 3 second tick you get 430 potency over my getting 270 potency over 4.74 seconds brings some real tears to my eye. You seem to think Dualcast just brings you instantly to the next cast.

And Summoner has aetherflow which is only 10% mana refresh but has skills that cost more mana.The only real trade off is that Summoner can lose damage and energy drain for more mana.

Still more than RDM gets for mana refresh. A 10% MP refresh every minute tied to your core rotation whereas RDM has to wait two minutes from a fresh CD to get their next refresh which, again, if using rezzes as often as you want us to, will leave us with nothing left to attack with.

If a healer dies and a caster needs to revive them, what happens if swiftcast is done? Red mage shrugs, casts one spell and Raises them no problem. Summoner is stuck hard casting that raise completely vulnerable during that time. Can't move and at the mercy of mechanics interrupting it.

And what happens when the RDM is out of mana because this isn't the first time it's happened? Then the RDM loses out on a ton of damage because we don't have nice DoTs up doing FaF damage for us.

Red mage is also much less punishing to play, has more dps, and outshines summoner in utility.

I won't deny RDM is a less punishing class. SMN is needlessly punishing at the moment. Dualcast makes verraise a distinctly better option than swiftrez. But RDM does not have more DPS than SMN. It's the weakest of the casters presented multiple times in this thread.

You do realize dualcast still hits the GCD right? We're belting spells out, but not at the speed you seem to think we are. We can push ~270 potency per GCD (~2.37s) on average, with maybe up to ~300 potency per GCD once we get to the melee and finisher spells. Combine every dot you have for your SMN, then your GCD attacks, and how much potency per second is that? Now account for the fact that you can have these dots on a lot of enemies, whereas RDM's only aoe is scatter spam, a few moulinets, and Contra Sixte.

[NaesakiAshwell]

Sadly Dualgunner all that seems to matter these days is what the dps parsers say at the end of a fight, like they are the holy gospel and the be all end all.

I do still love Summoner and as I've said in previous posts, I'm not gonna give up on this job. I am kind of sad at how many summoners are jumping ship but hey ho, what can ya do?

In an ideal world I think Ruin / Ruin II's base potency should be 140, then it goes to 160 during ruination.

Put Ruin 3's potency back to 200, and then its 220 during ruination

And Ruin IV a 260 potency, and 280 in ruination.

Maybe rein in the nerf on Bane so 60% is the max limit for the 5th enemy beyond.

Maybe up Bio III and Miasma III's potency to 50.

And maybe aetherflow could be a 30 or 40second CD OwO, because who wouldn't love to spam Bahamut even more <3

*scratches head* Although I guess that could be too much of a buff....

But really though, give me back Sustain and if they having this aether lockout. At least disable the use of Aetherflow when in DWT so it can't accidentally be wasted, and also make it so not landing bane or fester doesn't use an aether up.

[Dualgunner]

Put Ruin 3's potency back to 200, and then its 220 during ruination

And Ruin IV a 260 potency, and 280 in ruination.

Maybe rein in the nerf on Bane so 60% is the max limit for the 5th enemy beyond.

Maybe up Bio III and Miasma III's potency to 50.

And maybe aetherflow could be a 30 or 40second CD OwO, because who wouldn't love to spam Bahamut even more <3

*scratches head* Although I guess that could be too much of a buff....

I don't understand why they dropped Ruin 3's potency and then gave Ruin 4 the old potency. It feels disingenuous at best to do something like that and kill all reason to be excited for a Ruin 4 in the first place. The Bane buffs are shortsighted as well IMO, and with the MP regen nerf on Aetherflow I kind of would hope that they gave it a bit shorter of a CD ;w;

That said, according to the stats posted in this thread, SMN hits far harder than RDM does. I'm not complaining, it's a good place for RDM to be considering its utility. I feel bad for MCH more than SMN though.

[Nerisu]

All those potency numbers mean nothing if the job is not fun to play. RDM may be the "weakest" in terms of potency but it's a lot more fun and flows well compared to the new clunky and punishing SMN.

[Dualgunner]

All those potency numbers mean nothing if the job is not fun to play. RDM may be the "weakest" in terms of potency but it's a lot more fun and flows well compared to the new clunky and punishing SMN.

This argument would mean something if it was what I was arguing against. While I personally never found Summoner fun or engaging, I understand what its like to have your favorite job changed for the worse and no longer finding it fun. But RDM, while fun, is not some all-encompassing god caster that does everything SMN does and does it better.

For all intents and purposes it's the opposite of 3.x SMN, the anti-DoT mage.

[Ariomi]

Let me spell it out for you.

"Oh no both healers are dead. Vercure -> Verraise Healer 1-> Swiftcast -> Verraise Healer 2. Well, there's over half my MP pool".

Any other obvious RDM job tips you wanna share? I didn't quite understand the first time you didn't have to hardcast verraise to proc a dualcast for verraise and obviously it never dawned on me Swiftcast nulls the dualcast proc.

Or maybe you just don't pay attention and read in your victim narrative wherever possible. Woe is summoners dps despite being one of the highest. I'm not even against you that it's a difficult job to play and needs some balance added because of this but as it is, even your damage on Susano and Lakshmi shows that the job is still capable of hitting hard.

Your painfully wrong about a large number of things. Nobody here believes that summoner's dps is ok. Let alone top. Here's where Summoner stands in dps. They average around 2-3rd lowest dps and lower then both other casters. You can go through the different options and look for yourself.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#boss=1037

As A summoner "Oh no. Both healers are dead. It's a wipe."
If a summoner wants two raise both healers. Guess what. It's still 50% of the Summoner's Mana. As you so eloquently put, The minimum amount of time A red Mage can rez both healers could be right around 4 seconds. The Minimum amount of time a summoner could do it is around 9 seconds. Swiftcast > raise >wait for Gcd hard cast raise. By the time the Summoner gets both healers up, the tanks are most likely dead and nothing can save the run. Never mind that Summoner spent half their mana and 9 seconds doing nothing. During that 9 seconds, the Summoner is lucky if they do 180 potency per tick if they have their dots up. The Red Mage just goes back to attacking. A red mage can go any stone sky sea dummy and beat the dummy without using a single mana cooldown. Summoner's are encouraged to use as much as their mana as possible to increase dps. The dps loss hurts summoner more as it means they can no longer use their strongest spell.

Do you use ruin for 120 potency and 240 Mana, or ruin 3 for 170 potency and 1440 mana? (Under tri disaster buff) You use way more mana, But it's a dps gain. Alternatively, Summoner can play more passively, using ruin 1 and ruin 2 to save on mana, but lose a large amount of damage. (Oh only about a third of their spell damage)

Some other Red Mage tips? Sure. You can use all your Ogcds after you dualcast Veraero. You can fit in Ogcd's cleanly as there is a delay when Jolt 2 and Veraero cast before the Global cooldown resets. This is an improved Version of Summoner casting ruin 2 instead of ruin 3 so they can fit in a Ogcd without setting their rotation back.

Something quite interesting I noticed playing both Red Mage and Summoner. Ahk morn has 680 potency. Verflare/Holy is 550. Unbuffed (No embolden) on a training dummy at the same Ilvl Verholy does 11,830 damage. Ahk Morn did 10,992 damage. I find it odd that a 680 potency Ahk morn is out damaged by an unbuffed 550 potency.