Why is Machinist DPS SOOOO BAD?

[Heimdalgc]

Just add 10 potency to each skill, another 10 to overheat, wildfire 15 seconds, hot shot give 25 heat. And gay as barrel ad 10%, not 5%

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

I dunno but its fucking great in PVP, haven't had this much fun in a very long time. Its passed out my main in level (haven't had much time to play since the expansion hit) by the sheer amount of PVP I have been doing.

I heard its lackluster at 70, but in PVP its a wrecking ball.

[NoxLumina]

I have a friend who laughed at people saying MCH was weak on launch. He did much enjoy the free buffs

But yes even that guy says they're in a very bad spot so I guess you guys really have a problem.

[Feidam]

I keep seeing mch have less utility than bards. But when I look at the abilit lists seems about equal to me. What am I missing?

[Elnidfse]

What am I missing?

Less .5% rDPS contribution (~1.34% v ~2%) among other things;
Less personal DPS
No 20% healing up
No 15% buff for health or defense
No Raid crit or direct hit benefits

Instead we have role skills that bards can share too.
Vulnerability (which is overall for reasons listed above)
And dismantle. Which, when comparing 10% to 15% it's very clear which one has a larger impact over a larger period of time.

[RLofOBFL]

I keep seeing mch have less utility than bards. But when I look at the abilit lists seems about equal to me. What am I missing?

BRD has:
Party wide Crit rate +2% with 100% uptime
3% damage buff with Foe's that last 7 server tics or 21 seconds that can be reapplied approximately every 2:30 minutes
20 second 15% direct hit up every 3 minutes
A 45 second instant esuna
A 10% magic or phys vuln for 30 seconds every 3 minutes
A 15 second single target mantra(good for tanks)

MCH has:
A 5 second 10% damage down on one enemy every 90 seconds
A 5% damage up for one or all enemies for 29 seconds every 2 minutes

Then they both also have mp/tp regen and a 20% phys down for 10 seconds in cross role.

[Shunye]

BRD has:
Party wide Crit rate +2% with 100% uptime
3% damage buff with Foe's that last 7 server tics or 21 seconds that can be reapplied approximately every 2:30 minutes
20 second 15% direct hit up every 3 minutes
A 45 second instant esuna
A 10% magic or phys vuln for 30 seconds every 3 minutes
A 15 second single target mantra(good for tanks)

MCH has:
A 5 second 10% damage down on one enemy every 90 seconds
A 5% damage up for one or all enemies for 29 seconds every 2 minutes

Then they both also have mp/tp regen and a 20% phys down for 10 seconds in cross role.

let's be real here. when we are talking about "utility" we are talking about damage buffs. people who have actually done the math have bard buffs at around 1.25% raid damage where as mch buffs are around 1.5%. just because people can't distinuish between pure damage and different stats doesnt mean bards are bringing some godly utility.

[Elnidfse]

let's be real here. when we are talking about "utility" we are talking about damage buffs. people who have actually done the math have bard buffs at around 1.25% raid damage where as mch buffs are around 1.5%. just because people can't distinuish between pure damage and different stats doesnt mean bards are bringing some godly utility.

When people talk about utility they are not solely talking about damage buffs. That's why people mention RDM's entire kit when discussing where it stands among BLM. Because that "utility" you're underselling, such as the ability to do high potency off heals and instant cast resurrections are things that progressions FCs value. It's the reason why dismantle exists as a skill and our refreshes are in high demand. So no, utility isn't weighed solely among the damage giving potential that the individual jobs do, and is instead the entire kit.

Edit: I've redone my math and put it in a vacuum, negating Foe's Requiem because I frankly don't know how I should math it out given the many factors you can put into play to modify it. It's marginal anyways. Time for the numbers.
A MCH over the course of a 10 minute fight will raise rDPS ~1.3% (1.3158% far removed from 1.33 relatively).

A BRD over that same fight ignoring Foe's raises rDPS 1.9% (1.895%). This goes up (marginally) when factoring in Foes. And mind you this is being GENEROUS. Because both of these factors (crit and direct hit) are additive to preexisting values and straight DPS increases are multiplicative, the damage increase baseline for raid contribution is far sharper than this if you do something silly like factor in baseline crit, and then math the difference with and without it.

Not only is 1.25%(BRD) to 1.5%(MCH) wrong mathematically it's completely opposite in regards to effectiveness.

[Shhikasan]

Wildfire is terrible now, Flamethrower only use is to overheat when you have barrel stabilizer up. almost no reason to use overdrive outside the single phase change during susano coupled with the fact it doesn't count towards wildfire as well.

I mean if anything would be a quick fix right now would be to give back their dot and make their dot and hot shot do 25 heat each that way you can overheat and reapply buff and dot at the same time or something but really mch NEEDS a lot of love right now and not later like Heavensward had which was basically first half of the expac was terrible for them and with SB its far worst this time around

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I won't say it's the 100% tried and true best method, but I don't use Flamethrower to push OH. Instead, it's my lowest priority heat management tool, generally used if BS is on cooldown to ramp back up to 50. Then the Reloads and Cooldown are my go-to. Could just be me, but I feel the amount of time to ramp back to 50 with it is less than perhaps Hot Shot x5. Less damage for sure, but also less unheated downtime.