Integration of the Sword: Red Mage

[Kuukii]

Red mage should have been the reverse. Instead of casting for 90% of the time and unleashing melee attacks it should have been melee attacks build up mana then spend it on nuking magic attacks. Seriously whats the point of the sword if you barely use it.

[Volatile]

It does feel a bit odd to wave a sword around and hardly use it. That being said I do like that big burst of damage when you finally get to use it, especially if you save Fleche for it. I've started to look at the balance bar and sword attacks less like an integral part of the rotation and more like a personal limit break. Hopefully in future expansions there will be more of a balance between the casting and the melee.

[Shurrikhan]

To continue off the initial impressions you've appended so far, some of my own:

• In content like PotD, where frontloaded burst excels, the job feels strong. The tremendous length of the Verstone/Verfire Ready procs allows for plenty of flexibility, enough to pop Acceleration even without any intention of using the proc for quite some time to come. I find myself regularly soloing stuff that perhaps a typical DPS ought not be able to. In terms of power, mobility, and fluidity, it feels strong.
• That said, even if I were completely fine with the general idea of the RDM, some small things bug me, and sadly it's the small intentional additions made. Manafication should not remove combos or Dualcast. Dualcast should not be removed on "any action other than casting" (AAs, sprint, most often).
• Despite its general power, even enjoying myself I can't help but wonder how much more I'd enjoy the job if it were more than a caster with a 5-second melee burn phase. The skills are redundant, preferring to advance complexity from RNG alone, alike to a much looser Machinist, than from any inherent effects in its elements or actions. There's no nuance, only a bit (one fifth a build) of lenience, in the burn phase. And, ofc, the burn phase is only that, far reduced from what one would imagine of a spell fencer. It is ornamental, not integral.

[Duelle]

In content like PotD, where frontloaded burst excels, the job feels strong. The tremendous length of the Verstone/Verfire Ready procs allows for plenty of flexibility, enough to pop Acceleration even without any intention of using the proc for quite some time to come. I find myself regularly soloing stuff that perhaps a typical DPS ought not be able to. In terms of power, mobility, and fluidity, it feels strong.

I can agree with this. Especially in terms of staying power, as I've been able to solo tank FATE mini-bosses reliably once I got Vercure.

That said, even if I were completely fine with the general idea of the RDM, some small things bug me, and sadly it's the small intentional additions made. Manafication should not remove combos or Dualcast. Dualcast should not be removed on "any action other than casting" (AAs, sprint, most often).

Luckily, this seems to be a tooltip error. Autos don't cancel Dualcast, and neither do anything that is listed as an Ability. Haven't tested Sprint (it didn't occur to me to do so). Anything listed as a Weapon Skill will cancel Dualcast, though. I haven't hit 60 yet (between being unable to log on plus how busy I've been, my RDM is only 57), so I can't say anything about Manafication.

Despite its general power, even enjoying myself I can't help but wonder how much more I'd enjoy the job if it were more than a caster with a 5-second melee burn phase. The skills are redundant, preferring to advance complexity from RNG alone, alike to a much looser Machinist, than from any inherent effects in its elements or actions. There's no nuance, only a bit (one fifth a build) of lenience, in the burn phase. And, ofc, the burn phase is only that, far reduced from what one would imagine of a spell fencer. It is ornamental, not integral.

Agreed. You have two sets of skills that are basically the same thing (Verthunder/Veraero and Verstone/Verfire, three if you count Verflare/Verholy). There's oGCDs and utility, and the 3 hit melee combo.

I wasn't gonna share this until I finalized the design, but something I've been toying with was a system for 3 spells, and melee weapon skills changing how spells behave.

The former would sort of simulate what we currently have. I call it The Rule of Three, where you'd have to juggle casting Verfire, Verblizzard (new spell), and Verthunder to generate Mana (unified as one bar instead of White and Black). The idea is that you'd still have to cycle through Verfire/blizzard/thunder when at range (like running away from a mob's telegraph, or the mob opening distance between you and itself), while being discouraged from using the same spell over and over. Now you'd say "but then you have 3 spells that do the same thing instead of 4", but that sort of ties to the latter system.

The latter would be working spells into combos by having melee weapon skills alter the effects of spells. For example, Verfire would have a range of 20y when hardcast (2s cast time) and deal 180 potency in fire damage. But when used after a weapon skill, Verfire becomes a spell that casts instantly, has a 5y range and deals fire damage with a potency of 220. Verthunder would be a 20y range spell that deals 180 potency thunder damage when hardcast, but if used after a weapon skill becomes an instant-cast DoT with 24s duration.

The catch between both systems is that spells comboed with melee generate low/little mana, but your DPS tanks if you're just casting spells from range. This ties into two other tentative abilities:

Spellblade - Requires at least 30 Mana. Empowers your weaponskills, increasing their damage. Effect ends upon reuse, mana levels dipping below 25 Mana, or upon executing Redoublement. Cooldown: 2.5s.
Chainspell - Requires at least 50 Mana. Removes the cast time of spells used. Duration: 1s per 10 Mana (maximum of 10s at 100 Mana).

The idea there being that you're choosing how to spend your Mana depending on where you are. If you're at range and won'd be able to close the gap anytime soon due to mechanics or forced distance, you'll want to pool Mana for Chainspell. If you will be reliably in melee-range, you'll instead toggle Spellblade on to empower your melee combo. The idea still needs work, but that's what I got so far.

All this being said, the system currently in place can work, but needs notable adjustments to make melee an integral part of gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

I can agree with this. Especially in terms of staying power, as I've been able to solo tank FATE mini-bosses reliably once I got Vercure.

To me, the largest strength of Vercure is in its ability to trigger Dualcast like anything else. You can pre-pop it to have Swiftcast on demand before entering combat, or alternate it with your 5s casts for less DPS loss than one would normally assume.

Luckily, this seems to be a tooltip error. Autos don't cancel Dualcast, and neither do anything that is listed as an Ability. Haven't tested Sprint (it didn't occur to me to do so). Anything listed as a Weapon Skill will cancel Dualcast, though. I haven't hit 60 yet (between being unable to log on plus how busy I've been, my RDM is only 57), so I can't say anything about Manafication.

Sprint absolutely does remove it. I always had to Sprint then Vercure to be prepped for running combat in PotD. I hadn't thought to try Manafication intentionally, as I'd prefer to weave it in the oGCD gap anyways. I believe someone on the other thread tested both Abilities and AAs though and found they did not, though, right?

I wasn't gonna share this until I finalized the design, but something I've been toying with was a system for 3 spells, and melee weapon skills changing how spells behave.

The former would sort of simulate what we currently have. I call it The Rule of Three, where you'd have to juggle casting Verfire, Verblizzard (new spell), and Verthunder to generate Mana (unified as one bar instead of White and Black). The idea is that you'd still have to cycle through Verfire/blizzard/thunder when at range (like running away from a mob's telegraph, or the mob opening distance between you and itself), while being discouraged from using the same spell over and over. Now you'd say "but then you have 3 spells that do the same thing instead of 4", but that sort of ties to the latter system.

The latter would be working spells into combos by having melee weapon skills alter the effects of spells. For example, Verfire would have a range of 20y when hardcast (2s cast time) and deal 180 potency in fire damage. But when used after a weapon skill, Verfire becomes a spell that casts instantly, has a 5y range and deals fire damage with a potency of 220. Verthunder would be a 20y range spell that deals 180 potency thunder damage when hardcast, but if used after a weapon skill becomes an instant-cast DoT with 24s duration.

The catch between both systems is that spells comboed with melee generate low/little mana, but your DPS tanks if you're just casting spells from range. This ties into two other tentative abilities:

Spellblade - Requires at least 30 Mana. Empowers your weaponskills, increasing their damage. Effect ends upon reuse, mana levels dipping below 25 Mana, or upon executing Redoublement. Cooldown: 2.5s.
Chainspell - Requires at least 50 Mana. Removes the cast time of spells used. Duration: 1s per 10 Mana (maximum of 10s at 100 Mana).

The idea there being that you're choosing how to spend your Mana depending on where you are. If you're at range and won'd be able to close the gap anytime soon due to mechanics or forced distance, you'll want to pool Mana for Chainspell. If you will be reliably in melee-range, you'll instead toggle Spellblade on to empower your melee combo. The idea still needs work, but that's what I got so far.

All this being said, the system currently in place can work, but needs notable adjustments to make melee an integral part of gameplay.

Hmm, I don't think I'm quite seeing your vision here, gameplay-wise. I understand the functionality, but can't readily picture the positive effect on gameplay.

If I were to try to go really flesh out the white and black mana mechanic, myself, I'd like for it to have potentially granular effect and consumability, both, as one builds each, and reasons to focus particular balances and swings between White and Black Mana.

That said, we'd be talking at least three new skills' worth of mechanics, along with attaching additional effects to each element used, in white and black variants, on the Spells themselves and/or its integration with other Abilities. It's a lot to get into, so I'll edit it in later if you're interested, but for now my big questions are simply:

Is RDM even worth salvaging as a spell-fencer (e.g. worth making its loadout make sense and non-redundant)?

And, would salvaging it prevent the creation of a real spell-fencer later?

[Rongway]

To me, the largest strength of Vercure is in its ability to trigger Dualcast like anything else. You can pre-pop it to have Swiftcast on demand before entering combat, or alternate it with your 5s casts for less DPS loss than one would normally assume.

Vercure->Veraero/Verthunder is exactly the same DPS loss as slowcasting Veraero/Verthunder.

Vercure:2.5s + Instant Veraero/Verthunder:2.5s = 5.0s
Slowcast Veraero/Verthunder: 5.0s

In both cases, you're committing two GCDs to a single nuke, so let's please not encourage people to think that Vercure is an on-demand Swiftcast while combat is active.

[Duelle]

Hmm, I don't think I'm quite seeing your vision here, gameplay-wise. I understand the functionality, but can't readily picture the positive effect on gameplay.

Yeah, the idea is very barebones at the moment.

If I were to try to go really flesh out the white and black mana mechanic, myself, I'd like for it to have potentially granular effect and consumability, both, as one builds each, and reasons to focus particular balances and swings between White and Black Mana.

So basically, shifting between black and white phases in gameplay instead of entirely focusing on keeping the numbers balanced?

Is RDM even worth salvaging as a spell-fencer (e.g. worth making its loadout make sense and non-redundant)?

I'd probably say not without an expansion looming and lots of people wanting the job to be a spell-fencer. The more likely thing would be to integrate melee more into the rotation while keeping the other systems largely intact.

And, would salvaging it prevent the creation of a real spell-fencer later?

Depends on where you'd take that. Assuming we were to go with RDM being a guy that swings his sword and casts spells in tandem, you could create a spell-fencer based on something like Ramsey's old suggestion for elemental brands. His version of RDM, from what I recall, had different melee attacks that were elementally aligned (Waterbrand, Firebrand, etc).

[Warlyx]

i wonder about En-spells , even if AA dmg is based on str ? , the en-spell proc could be Int based , enchanting your sword with magic is very Rdm-esque

[VexSunkiller]

Playing most FF games with Job systems. Red didn't really have Melee skills and when it did they were damn weak. Red was always a Spell Caster and although it lacked Power it had Dual Cast or Chain Cast to make it Faster. Its not a Rune Fencer and Rune Fencer isnt a Red mage.

[Duelle]

Playing most FF games with Job systems.

First, the job-system FFs have classes that are one-trick ponies with very strict limits aside from whatever cross-classing is allowed. When you have to justify the existence of 20+ jobs, there will be limits and jobs with singular and (in some cases) very gimmicky uses (like how NIN existed only so that you could cross-class Dual Wield or the Throw command in certain games).

Second, the Attack command is for the most part all you have in terms of melee ability. To base your judgment entirely on that would mean you'd also want Fighter/WAR to simply auto-attack and offer no other skills.

Third, in a job system FF like III or V, a RDM with a spell library and sword skills would have too much on their plate and cover too much ground. As mentioned above, those games have classes built around very strict limits, and going beyond simple gimmicks creates redundancies with other classes in-game (not to mention, which should be the RDM cross-class subset available to other jobs? The sword skills or Dualcast/spells?). Hell, there's already redundancies in place (Magus being just a more powerful version of Black Mage in the FFIII remake), and having RDM contribute to that would not be a good thing.

Fourth, "it was like this in the console FFs" is not a good argument, because then you're basically saying that what was done with SCH, SMN (to an extent), NIN, DRK, and PLD should also be reverted because they were treated differently in their console representations.

PS: Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight are several solar systems apart from what I'm asking for, and to compare them to RDM is dishonest. Thanks for the bump, though.