Integration of the Sword: Red Mage

[Duelle]

Playing most FF games with Job systems.

First, the job-system FFs have classes that are one-trick ponies with very strict limits aside from whatever cross-classing is allowed. When you have to justify the existence of 20+ jobs, there will be limits and jobs with singular and (in some cases) very gimmicky uses (like how NIN existed only so that you could cross-class Dual Wield or the Throw command in certain games).

Second, the Attack command is for the most part all you have in terms of melee ability. To base your judgment entirely on that would mean you'd also want Fighter/WAR to simply auto-attack and offer no other skills.

Third, in a job system FF like III or V, a RDM with a spell library and sword skills would have too much on their plate and cover too much ground. As mentioned above, those games have classes built around very strict limits, and going beyond simple gimmicks creates redundancies with other classes in-game (not to mention, which should be the RDM cross-class subset available to other jobs? The sword skills or Dualcast/spells?). Hell, there's already redundancies in place (Magus being just a more powerful version of Black Mage in the FFIII remake), and having RDM contribute to that would not be a good thing.

Fourth, "it was like this in the console FFs" is not a good argument, because then you're basically saying that what was done with SCH, SMN (to an extent), NIN, DRK, and PLD should also be reverted because they were treated differently in their console representations.

PS: Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight are several solar systems apart from what I'm asking for, and to compare them to RDM is dishonest. Thanks for the bump, though.

[Eloah]

Playing most FF games with Job systems. Red didn't really have Melee skills and when it did they were damn weak. Red was always a Spell Caster and although it lacked Power it had Dual Cast or Chain Cast to make it Faster. Its not a Rune Fencer and Rune Fencer isnt a Red mage.

This is what I think exactly. RDM has always been primarily a magic user, but had higher melee stats by comparison. RDM has always been one of those jobs that is okay to start but fades very quickly, but if you stick with it, it gets a slight burst in power and useful skills, like Dualcast. And in some games like Dimensions, RDM is actuslly the Spellblade/Mystic Knight job.

Oh and to anyone who does not like this iteration, you have your opinion and that's okay, but let's not start the SMN debate again with RDM. Every game has it's own iteration. And fir what the concept of RDM is in the series XIV did a beautiful job giving us that feel.

And if one more person brings up fricken En- spells I'll scream, because we all know where that is coming from, regardless of playing it or not. Stop It! For the millionth time this is not XI-2

[Duelle]

but let's not start the SMN debate again with RDM.

Difference here is that there have been discussions and feedback on RDM since the beta to ARR (actually before that if you consider threads like this one; yes, that's a thread from 2012). Anyone who gave feedback on this is more than justified in feeling displeasure or disappointment.

Comparing that to SMN is a false equivalence, because the SMN issue is a lot bigger and comes from several sources. I won't say more on it here because we can discuss that in a SMN thread instead of a RDM thread.

For the millionth time this is not XI-2

Mentioning Enspells =! wanting FFXI-2. Especially since enspells was one of the few good ideas the game had and made absolute sense in the context of RDM.

[Eloah]

snip

I don't mean this in a negetive way towards you, but you realise that posting that link just gives validity to my claim, and the narrowmindedness/tunnel vision that is solely focused on XI.

And in regards to the SMN debate, there is no difference. If people are claiming that XIVs RDM isn't what a RDM is supposed to be, it's the same exact, unfounded and uninformed debate that SMN has had, and I hope is done with. You are right any SMN info should be posted on a thread about them, but just remember their active issue comes from their execution not their premise. You don't hear people bitching about SCH having a fairy, do you?

[Ryaz]

Just started my RDM as my first caster class. It's fun, but I have to agree that I was expecting it to be more melee based than it is now. I thought it would use more of a combination of melee and spells, with each of them feeding off each other, instead of a main caster who just occasionally jumps in for a few swings and then back out again.

[Vincent_Mateus]

I'm just waiting for sorcerer class.

[Duelle]

Well, I did say I would eventually write it...

Pipe Dreams: Red Mage, for real this time

Write-up

[AxiomPITCH]

Thank you for not jumping in on the RDM circlejerk, these are great ideas. The current iteration in-game is a travesty, much like Summoner. As soon as I saw the previews for the job I had such high hopes, but I very quickly hopped back onto the BLM main train. If I want to be a turret caster and stutter run between casts, that is what I will play. RDM had so much more potential. I would've settled with even simple en-strikes honestly, or even just the job's current mechanics reversed to be predominately in melee range most of the time. Right now it's a slightly weaker BLM weighed down by its questionable "utility." The raise brought nothing if no one died. The heal is only useful in overworld content and frankly it's insane that the job is balanced to be weaker because of such a fact. Embolden is a laughable increase that only really makes a difference in very specific party compositions.

My biggest gripe is how ridiculously easy the job is to play. Why are we not punished at all whatsoever on RDM? When for instance DRG can drop blood, MNK can lose lightning, BLM can drop eno, SMN can waste aetherflow, why is it that RDM is allowed to walk around with no mana deterioration or even a single timer to worry about? It's a shame that the classically acclaimed "jack of all trades" is just a very safe spam caster and as a consequence of that safeness, very unrewarding to play.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Spellblade is essentially a non-automatic version of what we already have, and there's no incentive to utilize mana before 80 aside from Chainspell which, if you wanted to utilize it with Foible you need 80 anyway since I'm assuming Chainspell doesn't remove/reduce the GCD either (And if I'm reading 'Enhanced Chainspell' correctly, the Reign effects aren't procc'ed during it) and using it any other way doesn't seem too beneficial. The mechanic doesn't seem to particularly difficult from what already exists. I don't dislike the idea, but it seems like the concept is just staying in melee and casting in melee just for the aesthetic. It doesn't seem "unique" to me. As a more thematic note I probably would call the capstone spell something different since Ardor means passion or devotion and probably restore the potency to 550.

As far as the foreword, they gave us their best representation of the job and how they wanted it done, they didn't base it off of X FF game or Y FF game, they gave us FFXIV Red Mage, and I, personally, enjoy it as is and don't fault you for not enjoying it.

[Duelle]

Spellblade is essentially a non-automatic version of what we already have, and there's no incentive to utilize mana before 80

I'll admit that this wouldn't be too different from what we currently have. The main reason for Spellblade is really to give the player control of when mana is getting consumed; also because the current system doesn't allow for sword skills and spells to be used in tandem.

I've been trying to come up with other skills that could be used to consume mana, but I think that creates the problem of then never having enough mana for Spellblade or Chainspell. Well, unless abilities/spells were to generate 20~ mana, but making you hit 80+ mana faster and more often would mean you'd have to nerf Spellblade/Chainspell to balance them out. The alternative would be locking both Spellblade and Chainspell behind a full mana bar (100), which is feasible.

aside from Chainspell which, if you wanted to utilize it with Foible you need 80 anyway since I'm assuming Chainspell doesn't remove/reduce the GCD either (And if I'm reading 'Enhanced Chainspell' correctly, the Reign effects aren't procc'ed during it)

On the first part, that's something I forgot to add to the description, so I'll correct that.

As for RoT proccing during Chainspell, you're correct in that it doesn't prior to lv66. I was thinking of letting RoT proc regardless of whether you have Chainspell active or not, but I thought that might make Chainspell a little too powerful. As I mentioned in my notes, Chainspell is more for situations where you're at high mana but are away from the target for some reason, or when you need to get Vercures/Verraises out quickly.

As a more thematic note I probably would call the capstone spell something different since Ardor means passion or devotion and probably restore the potency to 550.

Ardor is actually the RDM ultimate spell from FFXII (at least as of Zodiac edition). I needed a single spell to replace Verflare/Verholy, and it seems to fit if we wanted to do callbacks to other games. The potency nerf I felt was justified since you have damage more spread out between sword skills (which are a mainstay in the rotation in melee and don't deal low damage when used on their own), but sure, I'll buff it back to 550 potency.

PS: thanks for the feedback.

I think part of the problem is with the role system as a whole. If you look at the class tab both on lodestone and in game, there are three tabs for DPS. These are melee, physical ranged, and magical ranged. As role actions are tied to these groups, red mage must fit into one of them. In the current iteration, red mage is in the ranged magical role. This means that it is required to primarily provide ranged, casted magical damage and it's given role actions to support this (e.g. swiftcast, surecast).

If that's really the issue, they could just change the label from "magic ranged DPS" to "magic DPS". I certainly wouldn't have a problem with RDM falling under the label of magic DPS for gearing purposes (even if most caster gear looks ridiculous on RDM).

The role actions themselves aren't really distance-sensitive. The only skill that even suggests it might suit a ranged caster is Break, but stuff like Erase, Apocatastasis, and Mana Shift can and should be equally useful in melee or at range.