Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

[Sarcatica]

For me, that's exactly the reason. In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff. If I have full mastery over a damage rotation, I don't want any average joe doing more than me with a lower ilvl just because they have different gear. Basically, it's akin to the rant about Diadem weapon, where no skill could ever compensate for the gap in stats.

And I still don't understand how tanks could not feel like "they're helping out" when, without them, the team would be wiped in mere seconds...which is basically what happens when a STR tank is killed because he miscalculated how much max HP he needed.

Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

[Reynhart]

Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

Frankly, I'd blame the designers...because pure tanking rarely rise above "just being a hitting dummy for mob/bosses", so players find another direction where they can push their job. For me, it would be much more fun that a perfectly played theoretical tank should come close to 100% self-sustainability instead of competing in damage numbers.

[Lyth]

...

As long as you can make decisions about gear stats, there will always be differences in performance that result from it. If you want a "pure" gameplay experience, then not only do you need to remove differences in primary stats like STR out of the equation, but all of the secondaries. Then it purely becomes about rotation, not gear. But that's neither here nor there.

There are many things that tanks do to help their groups out, but defeating the boss is often one of them. For many of us, part of the fun of tanking is standing toe to toe with an enemy and trading blows with them. Even if that's not your thing, then having tank damage scale with accessory ilvl doesn't affect you at all. You can still Flash tank the boss to achieve the pacifist run of your dreams. For the rest of us, having tank damage scale with accessory ilvl is very important. Regardless of your style of gameplay, there's no reason for anyone to be opposed to this idea, as it doesn't impinge on your gameplay style.

Again, my point isn't about STR tanking. I'm comfortable with doing it when needed, and I don't mind if there are people out there who refuse to. I understand both points of view, and don't have any strong inclination to persuade people either way (or debate tank philosophy, for that matter). My point was that if you had tank accessories with both VIT and STR, tank damage will also scale with accessory ilvl, kind of like every other role in the game, including healers. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Failing that, just remove our weapons, change our main stat to Charisma, and have us incessantly irritate the boss with witty banter until it focuses us. Dancer and Mediator confirmed tanks for 5.0?

[Noza]

What about MT ?

Didn't try yet, but on Susano Ex (with VIT) you can eat Stormsplitter with ease without tank stance (DRK shield + CD is enought), Stance=20% damage reduction, STR=20% hp loss, so i think you can mitigate Stormsplitter the same way as with VIT by stance dancing... the problem is not gears, you have enought HP to survive any attack, the real problem is greed/unexperience, as long as you know the fight, incoming damages and how to deal with them, you dont need the VIT imo, i mean why do you prefer loosing about 30% damage when you are confident on your skills and your party ?
The combo PLD/DRK can even protect each others with their skills which helps healers, its up to you but i prefer running STR on fights that i know, push the dps, skip mech... as long as they don't fix it STR will remain the way to go, sadly...

Again, my point isn't about STR tanking. I'm comfortable with doing it when needed, and I don't mind if there are people out there who refuse to. I understand both points of view.

agree with you, if you are not comfortable with it, don't, if its ok, just do it...

[Reynhart]

As long as you can make decisions about gear stats, there will always be differences in performance that result from it.

But tank situation is basically an oversight from SE...no other job has to make that kind of "decision". Even if you have a liking to a certain secondary stat, never will it have such a huge impact on your performance.

Regardless of your style of gameplay, there's no reason for anyone to be opposed to this idea, as it doesn't impinge on your gameplay style.

I'm not opposed to the idea of aggressive tanking. I'm opposed of it being the only way from a competitive standpoint. Basically, the game gives you two options : One that offers nothing in a competitive aspect, and the other who offers everything...not really a choice, now, isn't it ?

My point was that if you had tank accessories with both VIT and STR, tank damage will also scale with accessory ilvl, kind of like every other role in the game, including healers. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Or you could do like healing accessories with piety. Vit would become like a secondary stat and wouldn't increase your damage at all. But no more pure VIT accessories.

[Brannigan]

In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff

I mean this isn't really true. Yes, your damage is literally increased by your increased STR, but dead tanks do zero damage. Surviving with that lower HP does take more skill and gameplay understanding than surviving with more max HP. You can look at it as part rotation tightness and part having enough fight knowledge and execution to be able to survive. Threading that needle can be tough in fights like Living Liquid where his cleaves do ~75% of your HP and missing your mitigation timing means you're dead.

Anyway I'm not so much concerned with big dick DPS numbers as I am with the lack of scaling for my small dick DPS numbers. If they keep it like it is now (which I doubt they will), i270 rings will pop up late in the expansion since each one gives you ~3 Stormblood pieces worth of STR. You might not wear full i270 stuff in the final raid, but giving up one accessory's worth of VIT for 3 of STR is almost a no brainer.

Once again I'd like to propose the ultimate solution of removing main damage stats from all accessories, making them VIT/substats/class specific stuff only, and forcing everyone to use main stat materia. Currently INT/MND/DEX materia have zero use in the game and that's pretty dumb. Really though they should just add some amount of scaling STR to tank accessories and class lock everything from pre-SB. I'm the type that actually loves unique items that stick around through expansions in MMORPGs, but those items aren't supposed to be something as boring as STR accessories.

Also this is kind of a side thing but god damn removing crafted overmelds and strength accessories and different sword delays and different shield types makes me really hate their item and battle team. Rather than fixing VIT accessories by giving them some actual advantage they just gimped everything else. If they're going to keep choice so limited can they at least TRY to add set bonuses or something? Removing item choice takes away things to do in the game (i.e. collecting items so you can make those choices). I was actually kind of excited when I heard Skillspeed would increase your auto attack rate because that meant it'd be better for Sword Oath and Ninjas than for other classes. Turns out that was BS and it just increases AA damage. Thanks SE.

[ed3891]

Even with the change to STR, at Stormblood launch, I saw my attack power fall from 1337 to 1246 due to the fact I was wearing BiS VIT gear.

With STR once again being the sole source of attack power for tank jobs, we've come back to this perception that the failure of any given tank player to stay standing is solely due to whether or not they're wearing VIT or STR accessories. I get how people who don't necessarily main any of the tank jobs, or main them but don't particularly play them well, would draw that conclusion. The fact of the matter, though, is that aggro generation in this game scales with damage dealt. This has nothing to do with any of us wanting to hang out in DPS stance 24/7. This has everything to do with a valid concern that the ability to maintain hate against DPS jobs is going to become a major problem so long as tanks remain locked out of attack power gains on half their gear, while DPS jobs continue to scale upward. I completely understand the desire to ensure that tank damage potential does not approach dedicated DPS job damage potential, and it's for that reason that the STR/VIT hybrid calculation made sense and worked.

I feel that the sudden switch back to STR-only for tanks owes itself to the changes in how Weakness and Brink of Death are calculated. What needs to change is how Weakness and BoD are handled - these SHOULD be timed damage down debuffs at 25% and 50% respectively instead of reductions to main stats. This would let us go back to STR/VIT hybrid scaling, and make the use of VIT accessories viable again. Otherwise, holding out against 40k crits from SAM and the incredibly fast spin-up on RDM is going to demand tanks squeeze as much attack power as they can out of what's presently available, and that means holding onto those i270 pieces.

[NinefoldRakshasa]

I find it really funny how the only people with their heads far enough up their asses to defend this cancer are the PLDs.
Totally a coincidence!(sarcasm)

[YitharV2]

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

Don't you know you're a tank and you're supposed to sit in tank stance and spam your aggro combo for days? :^)

[YitharV2]

Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

I agree 100% with Reynhart. Despite its numerous problems, in my opinion, TERA did tanking right. In TERA, a perfect tank would be 100% self-sustainable because they wouldn't take any damage.

FFXIV has designed tanks to be braindead dummies for bosses. So yeah I blame the designers.