Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Ariomi]

Why are you comparing two jobs while purposefully leaving these aside:
- The pet sustained damage (!)
- Aetherflow usage (Fester is 900 potency in 15s every minute)
- Ruination+DWT buff
- Deathflare
- Demi-Bahamut 160 potency hits every 1.5s
- Akh Morn hits twice (meaning 2 times per 120s, while "Barrage and Emp arrow" is once every 90s)
- Enkindle which isn't a 3mn cooldown because of Ruin IV procs

Same reason I didn't include Raging Strikes, Foe Req, Battle Voice, or The Wanderer's Minuet.
Ahk Morn Can't be used at the start of the fight and it's only possible to buff a single ahk morn. (Contagion doesn't last quite long enough.)
Barrage and Emp can be used instantly at the start of the fight, can be buffed by raging strikes (10%) a song of Bard's choice, and a 10% crit buff.

ahk morn can only be buffed 10%. God Forbid the damage, the direct hit and the crit buff cause emp arrow to direct crit hit for all three strikes. Barrage will have gone through a good chunk of it's cooldown by the time bahamut is ever summoned.

Emp Arrow is 230 potency every 15 seconds or 920 potency per minute. Sidewinder is 260.
I included deathflare. I compared it to Bard's Pitchperfect which is a 20 base potency stronger then deathflare assuming a Bard is able to get three stacks per minute.



If you want to compare Smn buffs to Bard's

Smn has Contagion (10% magic buff for 15 seconds)
Dreadwyrm (10% all damage for 16)
Ruination (Increases ruin by 20 potency... woo)
Radiant Shield (Oh but wait... can't use this on a dummy cause....)

Bard has
Raging Strikes (10% for 20 seconds)
Straighter Shot (10% crit for 20 seconds)
Foe Req (3% damage increase till it runs out)
The Wanderer's Minuet (2% crit buff)
Battle Voice (Direct Hit Buff by 15% for 20)

The ruination debuff is roughly the equivalent of Iron Jaws giving 100 potency when a Bard refreshes their dots.

Oh and did you forget bard can auto attack now? Auto attacks are 100 potency. Garuda's basic auto attack is does about the same damage as a summoner's 100 potency ruin. SO what about the pet's sustained damage? Bard Auto attacks on his own.

Enkindle is a 3 min cooldown factored on Rng. More often then not, It's cooldown is still over two minutes.

[Ariomi]

It's hard to get your point across when majority healers I see are SCHs still at 70 and if the dps aren't a SAM or RDM they are a SMN or BRD and I've seen SMNs still out dps most so your argument has to be more then what you don't like that changed because SE won't see it your way they will see it my way unfortunately....

At HW: Smn classes got heavily boostet -> balanced

Now at Stormblood: Smn AND Sch got actually destroyed, As if a random trainee had some drunk ideas and the devs didnt looked into this mess before... >.>
I dont like that class anymore....

As I'd said,

You are not the only one who is seeing this. I am seeing it from other quarters as well. And obviously from the thread linked on the last page... its not just a couple of people noticing the fall off.

I'm not the only one who would disagree with you.

[Fyce]

-Snip-

I listed you some stuff that you missed, and you still managed to ignore some of them. Especially the most important ones. You're definitly dishonest in your argument, only cherry picking what you want.

Stop this pointless comparison between skills. Compare actual full parses.

[Eloah]

stuff, not necessarily this post specifically,

Okay I tried to read everything, but after several pages I just had to chime in. Cause dude you need to quit while you can.

You seem to be unaware that every job SE has ever brought into existance can have a unique take per game. Here I'll give you a reverse example, maybe then you'll understand. "OMG change SCH, this is rediculous, SCHs don't have pets thats not what a traditional SCH does. Why do I summon a fairy, wouldn't that make me a SMN. I just want a traditional SCH." Hopefully that irony isn't lost on you or anyone else.

Oh and... you keep mentioning VII-X, but you might want to get your facts straightened out a little. First off, if you are forgoing a job system why not include II, IV, and VI. Second, You keep including IX, but IX has a Pseudo Job System, you just can't swap jobs, just the characters; IV is sorta similar but a bit different because of how the story progresses and the characters that come and go And Third, to add to the above, even when a job system isn't present, most character's are designed to fit into a Job, this is the case for VI, VII, VIII, and X. You are correct XII, did not have these systems. XIII, however had a different take on the Job System. And I've never played XV, but it looks like no Jib System is present there either.

Now onto the "pure" job debate... yeah that doesn't exist, SE can edit, alter, and create jobs as they see fit, since they are the creators. Some games have only Ninjas some have only Thieves, some both, same with Warriors or Fighters, Conjurers and Summoners... and hey on that topic, isn't the traditional FF Conjurer a lesser Summoner who can't call the summon just use their power briefly? And segwaying from that, some Jobs have had different names in the series, Conjurer/Evoker, Blue Mage/Gun Mage/Vampire, Dancer and Bard/Songstress/Performer, Dragoon/Dragon Knight/Valkyrie, Knight/Paladin/Holy Knight, the list goes on. And lastly not always is a job defined by its weapon... as you "pointed out" with DRK and Scythes. Warriors don't always wield axes, traditionally its swords. most Dark Knights in the series use swords not scythes, don't recall Summoners using grimoires really, or, and lets get the big on out of the way, when has a Bard used a Bow? Weapons are just that, weapons, what the character uses to deal damage, sometimes they are specific to that game and character, other times they can be what the player wants, they aren't set in stone. Eiko, a SMN, used Flutes, Rydia a SMN used Whips, Rosa a WHM used Bows, Wakka a RNG used Blitzballs, Cait Sith a BST used Megaphones, etc.

The main point is the series as a whole isn't as black and white as some people believe. The only things it has are commonalities that create the feeling of the jobs and world that SE is trying to make. As with RDM, they were worried that fans would not like their take, but they were able to do the job justice, but giving a jack-of-all-trades feel, not too strong in one area (maybe in magic though for obvious reasons) but where you have to use all 3 aspects to fight effectively.

[Erudito]

Well, DPS information on level 70 summoner is coming in slowly. At level 70 on Susano EX and dummy, Summoner is anywhere between second and 5th place depending on player skill and fight.

All I have to say about that is: I knew it. SE balanced Summoner DPS to level 70, where it is amazing. However this makes Summoner clunky and weak feeling on all content lower than 70.

Take my Summoner that is level 66, any level 65 random enemy anywhere brings me dangerously close to death and this is with my going out with my rotation and cooldowns. As a DPS we are not meant to be tanky, but the enemies get really, really close to just killing us before we kill them, and we are a DPS job! The enemy should be dead long before we hit half health if we go all out!

I say the return of sustain and some potency distributions is in order. A slight buff to wash a way some of the salt would not be a bad idea.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

As far as healing goes... they can't just remove Physick since its part of the arcanist package. What they can do however, is give summoners a trait at 30 that changes Physick into a pet heal. I vaguely recall someone mentioning that Sustain was removed because SMN's were soloing things SE didn't want them to. If that's the case, then give this new pet heal enough of a cooldown to be useful but not short enough to allow soloing whatever it is SE doesn't want them to solo.

[Kyne_Lyons]

I can't even keep all the different takes and complaints about Summoners in this thread straight because everyone has their own idea of what's wrong with the job.

Third parties read this thread and see Summoner, a job with DPS about as good/better than Black Mage, complaining and asking for buffs when there's objectively no performance issues with the job.

The problem isn't the job, it's the players.

[NaesakiAshwell]

I am starting to adapt to level 70 Summoner now and I'm moderately happy with it, still need to break the old aetherflow habits I had in regards to DWT. I do still enjoy this job immensely and I will adapt to any changes that get thrown my way. I've been playing Summoner as my main since 2.0 and I would hate to give up on it now, I know its sentimental but I do really love the lore, story and everything behind it.

However there is one but to all this... I'm still going to be unhappy about the loss of sustain and physick not getting a trait or something to compensate for the lack of a pet heal, like literally they could make a trait that changes a summoners physick into sustain to regain that ability and just make it a pure pet heal. I mean Garuda and Ifrit are fine if you have them out as you will be taking the brunt of damage when solo. But Titan is effectively useless since he takes way too much damage and no way to keep him alive without help from someone else.

[Ariomi]

Third parties read this thread and see Summoner, a job with DPS about as good/better than Black Mage, complaining and asking for buffs when there's objectively no performance issues with the job.

You are objectively wrong, when a summoner has to ask a healer to keep our pet that is 25% of our dps alive. If many many people have a problem with a job it probably needs to be tweaked

[Hayward]

I'm OK with the adjustment for SMN so far for one reason: Less reliance on AoE. I am glad SE is shifting the jobs focus from AoE's more towards single-target/small-group abilities. If it shakes a bunch of parser marks off the bandwagon, all the better.

I would hope, however, that a replacement for Sustain is in the works or a means for giving Titan more durability.