How are Tanks holding up from PLD WAR DRK

[SargentToughie]

Moot point: PLD can block (so inner beasts boon of effecting magic while block doesn't is nullified, with block coming ahead). Equilibrium is shared. Rampart is shared. Paladin has more more group utility, many of which also effect the paladin themselves (like divine veil). PLD has Bulwark, it has Sentinel (which WAR has no equivalent to). Dont know why you included Upheaval at all since PLD has the same skill: Spirits Within.

Its not like having two paladins would prevent one of the paladins from using their kit. Being able to have two interventions is better than having one intervention and one.... nothing, WAR offers the group nothing aside from a damage buffs that others can give.

I do think that if anything holds back the double PLD meta, it's going to be the LB gauge over WAR's defensive kit, you are entirely correct about that.

DRK/WAR are both in really dicy spots relative to PLD, I'm just going off the assumption (probably false) that we're still going to see two different jobs be taken. PLD/PLD is going to be bonkers strong, and WAR doesn't really provide anything of value outside of it's defensive suite, so I'm really more playing devil's advocate here.

Nevertheless, Warrior's got a thousand problems, I'm making a whole list of them for my own thread on here once I ding 70 on it, but it's defense suite definitely isn't one of them. This is the most durable we've ever been in the history of the game.

[Tila]

I do think that if anything holds back the double PLD meta, it's going to be the LB gauge over WAR's defensive kit, you are entirely correct about that.

DRK/WAR are both in really dicy spots relative to PLD, I'm just going off the assumption (probably false) that we're still going to see two different jobs be taken. PLD/PLD is going to be bonkers strong, and WAR doesn't really provide anything of value outside of it's defensive suite, so I'm really more playing devil's advocate here.

Nevertheless, Warrior's got a thousand problems, I'm making a whole list of them for my own thread on here once I ding 70 on it, but it's defense suite definitely isn't one of them. This is the most durable we've ever been in the history of the game.

Warriors lost a flat 10% damage reduction and a massive amount of self healing. They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more. I'm not seeing how they are oh so much more durable.

[Kuwagami]

Warriors lost a flat 10% damage reduction and a massive amount of self healing. They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more. I'm not seeing how they are oh so much more durable.

The 10% damage reduction is shared for all tanks since it's a design choice made to remove WAR from the "permanent spot because too stronk" place they were until now. This is irrelevant since it doesn't concern WARs alone, but all tanks in a raiding composition.

On the other hand, WAR traded foresight (which was always nice to have, but if we are to be honest, useless in most cases) for Rampart, which is way more useful AND provides a better defense buff.

[Reynhart]

They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more.

They also gained a flat damage increase on Defiance, a huge potency boost on Inner Beast, and the ability to use far more beast skills in Deliverance.

[Tila]

They also gained a flat damage increase on Defiance, a huge potency boost on Inner Beast, and the ability to use far more beast skills in Deliverance.

Which would all be buffs if WAR was meant to be a higher damage tank still, instead all tanks have around the same damage and their overall damage has been lowered due to the removal of strength of ACC leading to far less healing. That 10% was also their primary group utility which they lost and other tanks either still have their group utility (and gained more) or lost their utility but gained one.

[Reynhart]

Which would all be buffs if WAR was meant to be a higher damage tank still

I think WAR is still meant to be that. And if your answer is that PLD has a higher damage output...then, for me, PLD needs to be fixed.

their overall damage has been lowered due to the removal of strength of ACC leading to far less healing.

Every tank suffers that penalty equally. Keep in mind that we also lost Parry in favor of Tenacity which boost our damage, healing and mitigation.

That 10% was also their primary group utility which they lost

Several high-level WAR claimed that Storm's Eye was WAR's primary utility, and they still have it. Sure, if you have a SAM or a NIN, it's less important, but not every party has one.

I'd still wait for some real field tests to judge each tank's damage output.

[AdamZ]

Several high-level WAR claimed that Storm's Eye was WAR's primary utility, and they still have it. Sure, if you have a SAM or a NIN, it's less important, but not every party has one.

I'd still wait for some real field tests to judge each tank's damage output.

Potency increase on inner beast is pointless as every IB is a lost of a Fell, so it is still a lose. Eye loses most of its value now. both SAM and NIN should be applying the debuff as part of the normal rotation (remember that in HW NIN needed to use a diff rotation if applying). Sure if you are running without a SAM/NIN the debuff will be nice for the tanks, but with tank damage as a % of party dps being even further decreased in SB the increase in raid dps is smaller and smaller, and if the numbers turn out as we think, and Pally is doing 20% more damage, double pally, with or without a NIN/SAM will still be max dps.

[Reynhart]

Potency increase on inner beast is pointless as every IB is a lost of a Fell, so it is still a lose.

No, it's not...you use Inner Beast not for damage, but for mitigation...for tanking, which is your primary focus.
And, compared to before, if you need that mitigation, you're doing more damage.

As long as people will throw away any consideration for the mitigation part and only consider pure DPS, you'll only bring problems to future WAR adjustments. In fact, it's probably the overfocus on Fell Cleave in any theorycraft about WAR that turned them into Fell Cleave bots.

Eye loses most of its value now.

WAR is still the only tank to bring that. And you have a higher chance to have one of your two tanks as a WAR than one of your four DPS as a NIN or SAM.

and if the numbers turn out as we think, and Pally is doing 20% more damage, double pally, with or without a NIN/SAM will still be max dps.

Again, for me, that's a problem with PLD. And I say that as a veteran PLD : If PLD really does more damage than WAR on field testing, they should reduce PLD's damage.