RDM: You only have yourself to blame, if you expected something else

[Lambdafish]

Didn't Yoshi P say in an interview months ago that he was fully aware that people would be upset no matter how they designed it? I guess here's the proof.

I like the core of RDM in XIV and I feel like future expansions will expand upon the sword play and interactions between white and black magic. As it stands though, this is the closest that a RDM could be thematically in XIV, and I'm impressed with th final result.

[Kacho_Nacho]

"Ranged attacks using magic

Red Magic = Black & White Magic hybrid

Melee attacks using rapier

A hybrid ranged/melee style achieved via high-speed positioning

Deal massive damage by linking multiple spells with
chainspell and following them up with melee attacks"

Red Mage Job Description

That's exactly what we got.

And I love it, an uncomplicated damage dealer who uses an engaging spell casting mechanic to build up power for a devastating melee combo. To me, it's flashy, fun, and distinctive. I don't feel misled at all. I am happy with the red mage we received.

[Critical-Limit]

I don't think people were asking for it to be ranged and melee. Just some people wanted magical melee I think.

If someone was asking both... well that's bad

[Lambdafish]

I don't think people were asking for it to be ranged and melee. Just some people wanted magical melee I think.

If someone was asking both... well that's bad

If they want a magical melee then they can play PLD or DRK. RDM has never been a magical melee, that's why mystic knight and red mage were able to both appear in FFV.

[Duelle]

Continually repeating the mantra of "turn-based". FF14 basically IS turn based combat because it has a GCD of 2.5 seconds. Your "turn" comes up every 2.5 seconds, it functions essentially exactly like the old ATB systems of the majority of numbered FF games.

I find it interesting that the crux if your claim has been the ATB => GCD comparison when my main point of comparison is mechanics. Simply put, I've yet to see a turn-based FF game with hybrid mechanics (if you want, I'll paste some examples later). I've also tried looking into how that could even work without making the player waste turns, and my search has come up with little beyond allowing the player an offensive and defensive/support action per turn (as seen in The Stick of Truth), but that's also been called a system a bit too skewed in favor of the player, and I'm incline to agree with that assessment.

[Yorumi]

I find it interesting that the crux if your claim has been the ATB => GCD comparison when my main point of comparison is mechanics. Simply put, I've yet to see a turn-based FF game with hybrid mechanics (if you want, I'll paste some examples later). I've also tried looking into how that could even work without making the player waste turns, and my search has come up with little beyond allowing the player an offensive and defensive/support action per turn (as seen in The Stick of Truth), but that's also been called a system a bit too skewed in favor of the player, and I'm incline to agree with that assessment.

And now you're just cherry picking and engaging in a bait and switch. You keep talking about turn based mechanics, not specifically FF games. Even restricting it to FF games though is silly and doesn't help you. At any time in the 30 year history of FF SE could have made rdm focus more on melee. They could have giving itdouble attack, they could have giving it mystic knight's blade enchantments, they could have changed double cast to double action(basically allowing you to do a melee swing and a cast in the same turn), and any number of things along a nearly infinite spectrum. What did SE do? Continually improve the casting of a rdm and never did anything to get them to focus more on melee. It's continually been placed in the category of casters, ie mages.

The facts are that rdm has historically always been a caster, nothing in FF prevented them changing this, specially because an ATB is very similar to the kind of combat we have here. They didn't, they classified rdm as a mage and focused on improving it's casting.

There is no reason at all to have ever believed that SE would change rdm in FF14 to be more in line with mystic knight than what rdm has been for the three decade history of rdm in FF. All you keep presenting in thread after thread is your own deluded wishful thinking, irrational fantasies, and silly mantra.

[Saito_S]

It's weird how this discussion is sort of stretched across more than one thread right now, but to add onto what Yorumi is saying here - this is the other reason I didn't reply to you, Duelle.

Rabbit hole? I mean, I hadn't previously brought up your whole "console FF vs. MMO FF" argument, but to be honest, it makes no sense to me. There is nothing about a console/turn-based FF, nor an MMO FF, that would inherently preclude either a full hybrid, with 50% focus on melee and magic or combining them, OR a "skewed" hybrid like what we got with XIV RDM. You come off as a bit condescending with this argument, as well - "Sigh. This again?" When the premise itself - that "not a console FF" is apparently a HUGE deciding factor in what RDM could or should be - is neither clear nor settled.

[Duelle]

You keep talking about turn based mechanics, not specifically FF games.

Indeed I have. And my point continues to stand, since just as you tried to argue against the examples I presented the last time we had this conversation, I presented examples in the context of hybrids and you either never responded or I never saw your response to my response.

At any time in the 30 year history of FF SE could have made rdm focus more on melee.

Not when the entirety of physical damage was limited to the Fight/Attack command. Especially when you take into account that they limited classes to a special command (which were all, in complete honesty, gimmicks) and Attack, Magic and Item. We didn't even have the luxury of a secondary skill sets per class (like the skills with limited number of uses seen in Phantasy Star IV) until Final Fantasy IX, and SE to my knowledge never really took off with that idea. Doesn't help that for the games where SE did make use of it (FFX-2 comes to mind), RDM was not one of the jobs available.

They could have given it double attack

Multi-hits didn't become a thing until FFVI, to my knowledge (and even then, it required a relic). A bit late since RDM stopped appearing in the numbered FFs at that point (aside from the stream of remasters we've seen since the 90's).

They could have given it mystic knight's blade enchantments

The console Mystic Knight had the Attack animation with an extra effect as its special command. Connected to my point above of most special commands being gimmicks, it'd make little sense to pin that on RDM (mostly because you wouldn't need Black Magic on your spell list if SE had straight out given RDM Magic Sword, on top of losing one job with which to pad the list).

they could have changed double cast to double action(basically allowing you to do a melee swing and a cast in the same turn)

Chances are the reason they didn't do that would be due to the potential of Double Action being even more insanely powerful when cross-classed than Doublecast was. I could see it happening in a game where the characters have fixed classes, but we haven't had that in a long while. Much less one where a RDM is part of the cast.

As fun as my discussions with you on this are, we're falling into the pattern of me saying something, you claiming I'm wrong and presenting examples that have nothing to do with the context of what I'm talking about, and I reply with something. In the spirit of this, here's a list of mechanics that I look for when discussing hybrid gameplay:

- Procs: Melee strikes generating an effect that does something to spell-casting. This could be removing cast times, or increasing their power, or reducing/increasing MP cost in exchange for something. Assuming no combo system in place, this would be a RDM using a weapon skill and having the chance to gain the ability to cast the next spell instantly.
- Stacking buffs: Similarly to the above, but much more controlled. A weaponskill generates stacks of a buff that reduces the cast time of the next spell by 33%, entirely removing the cast time at 3 stacks.
- Synergy: Melee strikes weakening the enemy to magic, or magic spells weakening the enemy to melee strikes.
- Alterations: Using a spell after a weaponskill changes the behavior/effect of that spell (hard-casting a spell makes if behave like a regular ranged nuke, but used after a weaponskill it becomes a close-range spell that applies effects or deals a different amount of damage). Or using a weaponskill after a spell is cast changes the properties of that weaponskill (the most obvious one here would be using a weaponskill after a spell enchants your weapon for 20s to deal additional elemental damage).

If you know of any turn-based RPG (and I mean real turn-based RPG with either attack rounds or ATB) that has any of the above, I'd appreciate you pointing me to them. As I've said, I've been looking around and trying to come up with a system within that framework for a while, and have come up short.

[Yorumi]

If you know of any turn-based RPG (and I mean real turn-based RPG with either attack rounds or ATB) that has any of the above, I'd appreciate you pointing me to them. As I've said, I've been looking around and trying to come up with a system within that framework for a while, and have come up short.

Nothing you suggested has anything at all to do with turn based combat. Turn based combat is entirely related to the speed at which combat plays out. So again we have bait and switch, invalid arguing. Turn based combat doesn't even relate to how many actions a character can perform in combat. Many turn based systems allow for multiple actions. Either you're intentionally engaging in bait and switch or you just have literally no idea what you're talking about.

[Waaltar]

IRDM has never been a magical melee, that's why mystic knight and red mage were able to both appear in FFV.

FF1. You got the Masamune and for lots of setups the Red Mage/Red Wizard would be the 2nd best melee. Also a lot of people would have haste on their Red Mage to save Black Mage for damage spells.

Still I don't disagree with you overall. I like Red Mage so far. Anybody who thought it would be 50/50 melee/ranged was dreaming, and haste would just break everything. But then again, I think I am going to try to put as much spell speed on my RDM as possible, because you'll get the additional benefit of filling the gauges faster. Those long cast times when you don't have a proc or swiftcast...