Seeing Red - A Complete Red Mage Guide

[Silverquick]

@Silverquick

I have tested and the result is as the other people have pointed out. A GCD is a GCD, if your cast time is 1.8sec and its GCD is 2.4sec then regardless of Dualcast you will have to wait 2.4sec upon hitting that Jolt button before you can activate the succeeding skill.

Well that's not happening and as I said, I literally did test it. Multiple times.

Are we really sure here that the Dual Cast isn't functioning as a Proc rather than an actual spell with a GCD.

[Parawill]

Well that's not happening and as I said, I literally did test it. Multiple times.

Are we really sure here that the Dual Cast isn't functioning as a Proc rather than an actual spell with a GCD.

Semantics, but really, more or so because it doesn't make sense. Dual Cast is not a proc. It is not a programmed random occurence. It is guaranteed after any hardcasted spell, thus making it not random whatsoever. In addition to this, all Dual Cast does is make the next GCD spell instant. Cast time has nothing to do with the global cooldown as that restricts the number of actions we can do at a specific time frame.

So if we have a GCD of 2.5 seconds and the cast times are 2.5, we can get two skills within the time frame of 5 seconds. If we have a GCD of 2.5 seconds, and our cast times are 1.5, we are still locked within the global cooldown, thus letting us only cast only two skills because 2.5 GCD per skill equates to 5 seconds. If we have no cast time and our GCD is 2.5 seconds, we still can only cast two spells within 5 seconds.

The only thing cast speed does in relevance to the GCD is that Red Mages damage at a different frequency/rate than any other class because they cast into insta-cast frequently, thus they get two skills within cast time + instant cast animation, but are still locked within the 5 second GCD (using the example numbers from above).

[Sephorai]

In a nutshell, no. Using the first part of your combo isn't very potent. Also, Manafication does nothing but double the gauge. Meaning, you don't need Manafication + Embolden to happen at the same time. Also, it doesn't take too long to build up your gauge from 30 to 80. If you are wasting 30 mana to only use Riposte, you are losing dps.

I completely understand your logic and how you came to that conclusion. But no, you should never only be doing half of your full combo.

i dont understand how it would be a loss of DPS though, wouldnt it be a larger loss of DPS to have to hold Manafication? Also ideally im pretty sure you want to keep embolden and manafication synched right? I mean manafication directly enables the situation you want to use embolden on.

Ill try to math it out today but I really do think it is worth it to spend excess blackwhite mana to get yourself to 40ish on each so that you can pop embolden and manafication together as they come off CD every time.

Also can we please ignore Silverquick, arguing with him is a waste of time and space

[Silverquick]

Semantics, but really, more or so because it doesn't make sense. Dual Cast is not a proc. .

Not necessarily...

If it were treated akin to a proc, and not an actual spell cast with a GCD, it would exhibit the same type of behavior I am seeing.

You could insta-cast immediately after your first spell... and ignore the CD, and set everything into cooldown.

So yes, I think its a very valid.

We may be approaching this from entirely the wrong angle.

[Rbstr]

You're seeing behavior no one else is seeing. I've tested it too, it clearly behaves in accordance with the GCD.

Not sure why you're so desperate to claim dualcast works differently from everything else in the game like it. Thundercloud, Firestarter and Swiftcast all behave exactly like this.

[Surles]

Is there any reason to dualcast a second scatter over aero/thunder on a 3 target fight? It would let you build up your guage faster, and possibly have procs ready if the target count decreases.

[Silverquick]

Not sure why you're so desperate to claim dualcast works differently from everything else in the game like it. Thundercloud, Firestarter and Swiftcast all behave exactly like this.

Mostly because I don't see what you are seeing and I don't see that kind of behavior out of it...

...from my perspective after playing BLM, Dual Cast plays much closer to the Procs I use as BLM, not as an actual casted spell.

But that aside.... if someone does generally quote me or respond to me, I generally answer just as a matter of course. Otherwise I generally just state my opinion.

[Sacerdos]

Is there any reason to dualcast a second scatter over aero/thunder on a 3 target fight? It would let you build up your guage faster, and possibly have procs ready if the target count decreases.

On three targets it is slightly better to HC Scatter -> DC Aero/Thunder, for the extra mana. 3 target Scatter is 300 potency, 8.5 total mana on average, while Aero/Thunder is 300 potency, 11 mana.

Enchanted Moulinet is on 3 targets is 200 x 3 = 600 potency.

(600 - 300 potency (replacing Scatter))/60 mana = 5 potency per mana (This doesn't account for the lower GCD on Moulinet. 1.5 gcd vs 2.5 gcd)

2.5 mana * 5 ppm = 12.5 potency.

This assumes that you're constantly pulling 3 mob packs, and you're using all the extra mana. Its essentially a wash if you aren't.

On 4 Targets, Scatter is strictly better. 400 potency for Scatter vs ~320 for Thunder/Aero.

[Tiops]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but do we have an idea of a optimal opener yet?

[Sacerdos]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but do we have an idea of a optimal opener yet?

I did a little bit of analysis of the worst and best case scenarios (no procs vs all procs). TLDR: Acceleration and Swiftcast Aero/Thunder will guarantee you hit 40/40 mana in 8 gcds instead of 9, whether or not you pre-cast Jolt or Thunder/Aero. Pre-casting Acceleration + Thunder/Aero gives you a chance of hitting 40/40 with only 7 gcds if you get all the Verready procs. Note that you only should use Swiftcast in the opening when you don't get procs on the DC Thunder/Aero, to avoid eating procs (eatting a proc wastes the SC).

Acceleration assumed in all cases, and I left out the other oGCDs for simplicity, just looking at how quickly you can get to 40/40 for Manafication into Melee combo.

Please look over this and see if I made any errors. These aren't set in stone, they're just examples of worst/best case procs.

Jolt Opener, No Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3 (Black mana/White mana)
--
DC Thunder 14/3
HC Fire 23/3
DC Aero 23/14
HC Impact 27/18
DC Aero 27/29
HC Jolt 30/32
DC Thunder 41/32
HC Impact 45/36
DC Aero 45/47

9 GCDs, 92 mana,

Jolt Opener, With Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
SC Aero 14/14
HC Fire 23/14
DC Aero 23/25
HC Impact 27/29
DC Aero 27/40
HC Jolt 30/43
DC Thunder 41/43

8 GCDs, 84 mana

Thunder Opener, No Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
HC Fire 20/11
DC Aero 20/22
HC Jolt 23/25
DC Thunder 34/25
HC Impact 38/29
DC Aero 38/40
HC Jolt 41/43
DC Thunder 51/43 (overcapping to 50/43)

8 GCDs, 84 Mana (Skipping DC)
9 GCDs, 93 Mana

Thunder Opener, With Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
SC Aero 11/22
HC Fire 20/22
DC Thunder 31/22
HC Jolt 34/25
DC Aero 34/36
HC Impact 38/40
DC Thunder 49/40

8 GCDs, 89 Mana

Jolt Opener, No Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
HC Fire 23/3
DC Aero 23/14
HC Stone 23/23
DC Thunder 34/23
HC Fire 43/23
DC Aero 43/34
HC Stone 43/43
DC Thunder 54/43 (capping to 50/43)

8 GCDS, 86 Mana (skipping DC)
9 GCDs, 93 mana

Jolt Opener, With Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
SC Aero 14/14
HC Fire 23/14
DC Thunder 34/14
HC Stone 34/23
DC Aero 34/34
HC Fire 43/34
DC Aero 43/45 (possibly wastes stone proc)

8 GCDs, 88 Mana

Thunder Opener, No Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
HC Fire 20/11
DC Thunder 31/11
HC Stone 31/20
DC Aero 31/31
HC Fire 40/31
DC Aero 40/42 (possibly wastes stone proc)

7 GCDs, 82 Mana