Seeing Red - A Complete Red Mage Guide

[Silverquick]

Not sure why you're so desperate to claim dualcast works differently from everything else in the game like it. Thundercloud, Firestarter and Swiftcast all behave exactly like this.

Mostly because I don't see what you are seeing and I don't see that kind of behavior out of it...

...from my perspective after playing BLM, Dual Cast plays much closer to the Procs I use as BLM, not as an actual casted spell.

But that aside.... if someone does generally quote me or respond to me, I generally answer just as a matter of course. Otherwise I generally just state my opinion.

[Surles]

Is there any reason to dualcast a second scatter over aero/thunder on a 3 target fight? It would let you build up your guage faster, and possibly have procs ready if the target count decreases.

[Sacerdos]

Is there any reason to dualcast a second scatter over aero/thunder on a 3 target fight? It would let you build up your guage faster, and possibly have procs ready if the target count decreases.

On three targets it is slightly better to HC Scatter -> DC Aero/Thunder, for the extra mana. 3 target Scatter is 300 potency, 8.5 total mana on average, while Aero/Thunder is 300 potency, 11 mana.

Enchanted Moulinet is on 3 targets is 200 x 3 = 600 potency.

(600 - 300 potency (replacing Scatter))/60 mana = 5 potency per mana (This doesn't account for the lower GCD on Moulinet. 1.5 gcd vs 2.5 gcd)

2.5 mana * 5 ppm = 12.5 potency.

This assumes that you're constantly pulling 3 mob packs, and you're using all the extra mana. Its essentially a wash if you aren't.

On 4 Targets, Scatter is strictly better. 400 potency for Scatter vs ~320 for Thunder/Aero.

[Tiops]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but do we have an idea of a optimal opener yet?

[Sacerdos]

Sorry if this was already discussed, but do we have an idea of a optimal opener yet?

I did a little bit of analysis of the worst and best case scenarios (no procs vs all procs). TLDR: Acceleration and Swiftcast Aero/Thunder will guarantee you hit 40/40 mana in 8 gcds instead of 9, whether or not you pre-cast Jolt or Thunder/Aero. Pre-casting Acceleration + Thunder/Aero gives you a chance of hitting 40/40 with only 7 gcds if you get all the Verready procs. Note that you only should use Swiftcast in the opening when you don't get procs on the DC Thunder/Aero, to avoid eating procs (eatting a proc wastes the SC).

Acceleration assumed in all cases, and I left out the other oGCDs for simplicity, just looking at how quickly you can get to 40/40 for Manafication into Melee combo.

Please look over this and see if I made any errors. These aren't set in stone, they're just examples of worst/best case procs.

Jolt Opener, No Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3 (Black mana/White mana)
--
DC Thunder 14/3
HC Fire 23/3
DC Aero 23/14
HC Impact 27/18
DC Aero 27/29
HC Jolt 30/32
DC Thunder 41/32
HC Impact 45/36
DC Aero 45/47

9 GCDs, 92 mana,

Jolt Opener, With Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
SC Aero 14/14
HC Fire 23/14
DC Aero 23/25
HC Impact 27/29
DC Aero 27/40
HC Jolt 30/43
DC Thunder 41/43

8 GCDs, 84 mana

Thunder Opener, No Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
HC Fire 20/11
DC Aero 20/22
HC Jolt 23/25
DC Thunder 34/25
HC Impact 38/29
DC Aero 38/40
HC Jolt 41/43
DC Thunder 51/43 (overcapping to 50/43)

8 GCDs, 84 Mana (Skipping DC)
9 GCDs, 93 Mana

Thunder Opener, With Swiftcast, No Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
SC Aero 11/22
HC Fire 20/22
DC Thunder 31/22
HC Jolt 34/25
DC Aero 34/36
HC Impact 38/40
DC Thunder 49/40

8 GCDs, 89 Mana

Jolt Opener, No Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
HC Fire 23/3
DC Aero 23/14
HC Stone 23/23
DC Thunder 34/23
HC Fire 43/23
DC Aero 43/34
HC Stone 43/43
DC Thunder 54/43 (capping to 50/43)

8 GCDS, 86 Mana (skipping DC)
9 GCDs, 93 mana

Jolt Opener, With Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Jolt 3/3
--
DC Thunder 14/3
SC Aero 14/14
HC Fire 23/14
DC Thunder 34/14
HC Stone 34/23
DC Aero 34/34
HC Fire 43/34
DC Aero 43/45 (possibly wastes stone proc)

8 GCDs, 88 Mana

Thunder Opener, No Swiftcast, All Procs:
Pre-cast Thunder 11/0
--
DC Aero 11/11
HC Fire 20/11
DC Thunder 31/11
HC Stone 31/20
DC Aero 31/31
HC Fire 40/31
DC Aero 40/42 (possibly wastes stone proc)

7 GCDs, 82 Mana

[Tide]

snip

I can appreciate your work, but why go through every possible situation of starting with white or starting with black and then every single GCD of with proc and no proc. opener rotations wont work with this class, its more about teaching the priority and following it, the real work comes down to how long it takes to get to 80/80 with all your cooldowns to use embolden for the melee combo wit flare/holy. I dont see holding off on things or using things at certain times to be any use since it takes varying number of cooldowns to reach to 80/80 each time. I see the priority list as this.

[Sacerdos]

I can appreciate your work, but why go through every possible situation of starting with white or starting with black and then every single GCD of with proc and no proc. opener rotations wont work with this class, its more about teaching the priority and following it, the real work comes down to how long it takes to get to 80/80 with all your cooldowns to use embolden for the melee combo wit flare/holy. I dont see holding off on things or using things at certain times to be any use since it takes varying number of cooldowns to reach to 80/80 each time. I see the priority list as this.

Someone asked about the opening, I was going through the best and worst cases proc wise in the opener, to show that:

1. You'll always hit 40/40 in at most 9 GCDs.
2. You'll never hit 40/40 faster than 7 GCDs.
3. If you use Swiftcast in the opener, you can guarantee 40/40 in 8 GCDs.

I'm actually not sure of the impact of getting into Melee combo faster is DPS wise though.

[Fortune_Cookie]

I'm actually not sure of the impact of getting into Melee combo faster is DPS wise though.

In the opener this will presumably depend on the timing of raid cooldowns?

From a sustained dps perspective, getting into melee 2 GCDs earlier or later shouldn't make a difference of itself. RDM is limited by the amount of WM/BM it generates. You can do one melee combo for each 80/80 mana you generate; going slightly earlier or later just shifts the same damage around in time a bit.

(Obviously, if the reason you're going into melee earlier is because you got more procs and hence more mana that equates to more damage. But it's really the additional mana that results in additional damage - outside openers/burst windows of course.)

[Tide]

I'm actually not sure of the impact of getting into Melee combo faster is DPS wise though.

Remember that our hardest hitting spell, holy and flare are off the melee combo, getting there faster means squeezing in more melee combos in a fight duration. as for the start of a fight using manafication, as someone else had mentioned, perhaps raid buffs or fight mechanics, ultimately you will want to learn to cater to the fight, making sure you are ready for a melee combo for a dps check phase etc.

[Tide]

Spell priority(no cooldowns)
1. Use flare if black is lower, use holy if white is lower
2. Use melee combo Riposte/Zwerchhau/redoublement with at least 80white/80black
NOTE FOR MANA SPELLS- Keep white and black within 30 points of each other.
- Slightly unbalanced by the time they are at/above 80/80.
3. Use Thunder/aero to generate white/black mana if under dualcast
4. Use fire/stone to generate white/black mana when procd and not under dualcast
5. Use impact when not under dualcast, when available
6. Use Jolt2 when not under dualcast

That is the rotation. without cooldowns. Aoe is as follows.
1. Use moulinet with at least 30/30 mana
2. Use Scatter