About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Taika]

Ummmm and if the ONE HEALER that has Esuna dies? But the other healer is still alive, but has no Esuna, what if in the time it takes that healer to revive the other healer, multiple people die from a DoT or other crippling Debuff? Hmm? Well? Unless they plan to remove the Animation/Time Delay of the Revival process, which adds an extra 5 or so seconds after you accept the revive, people....can....die.

You can't really plan your raid strategies for failure, you make the most optimal plan and stick with it. It's like saying "we need to have a SMN in the group, otherwise what if both healers die..." In raids, if one healer dies, it's generally game over in the first place (in progression phase before overgearing, I mean).

I used Coil 10 and A3S as my examples (those are so far the only raid fights I remember which required Esuna). If the Esuna healer would have died in either, there really wouldn't have been a point in the other having the spell available (well at least in A3S, not sure how well I remember Coil 10 ).

[Ootarion]

You can't really plan your raid strategies for failure, you make the most optimal plan and stick with it. It's like saying "we need to have a SMN in the group, otherwise what if both healers die..." In raids, if one healer dies, it's generally game over in the first place (in progression phase before overgearing, I mean).

I used Coil 10 and A3S as my examples (those are so far the only raid fights I remember which required Esuna). If the Esuna healer would have died in either, there really wouldn't have been a point in the other having the spell available (well at least in A3S, not sure how well I remember Coil 10 ).

You cannot, and should not, expect one healer to be the only one using their MP to remove debuffs, there is a reason to have multiple healers, and not just for HEALING, but for sharing the burden of EVERYTHING, you're putting to much on one healer by asking them to be the only one both healing AND removing debuffs. Im not saying this because I couldnt do that, cause I could, Im saying this cause that would be unfair. That would be like asking ONE healer to be dedicated revival, which Raise, Ascend and Resurrection all cost ALOT OF MP! Furthermore you cannot and SHOULD NOT expect everyone you roll with to always be on their A game and avoid all the stuff that can be avoided, people will make mistakes, and it is for this reason that it is CRUCIAL to have redundancy, IE having two healers with Debuff Removers, and both healers reviving as needed, it's again, called sharing the burden, dont be selfish.

[Taika]

You cannot, and should not, expect one healer to be the only one using their MP to remove debuffs, there is a reason to have multiple healers, and not just for HEALING, but for sharing the burden of EVERYTHING, you're putting to much on one healer by asking them to be the only one both healing AND removing debuffs. Im not saying this because I couldnt do that, cause I could, Im saying this cause that would be unfair.

Erm I was talking about my own experience, how my raid groups have handled fights like this (being the healer responsible erasing those debuffs). Have you done them otherwise? To me it doesn't make any sense for both healers to be doing the same thing at the same time, when one of them could be doing the debuff erasing while the other could actually be healing the party (or doing something else useful).

That would be like asking ONE healer to be dedicated revival, which Raise, Ascend and Resurrection all cost ALOT OF MP!

In WHM+SCH raiding, usually it was always the SCH's responsibility to handle all the raises... Have you actually done any raiding in this game?

Yes I have, and you know what, Ive raided with various mixes of healers, and you know what? We all shared in the burden of reviving people AND removing debuffs, cause that is how you work together, you share the burden, if you are not a healer, you wouldnt get it.

I've been healer main since 1.0 and raided through ARR as WHM and HW as SCH... What we've done we've always agreed who's responsible for what and when, together.

Edit: Checked your character and you don't even seem to have any healer raid gear so yeah, please tell me more about how I'm the one who doesn't know anything about raid healing and how I am "lazy, irresponsible and unfair".

[Ootarion]

Erm I was talking about my own experience, how my raid groups have handled fights like this (being the healer responsible erasing those debuffs). Have you done them otherwise? To me it doesn't make any sense for both healers to be doing the same thing at the same time, when one of them could be doing the debuff erasing while the other could actually be healing the party (or doing something else useful).


In WHM+SCH raiding, usually it was always the SCH's responsibility to handle all the raises... Have you actually done any raiding in this game?

Yes I have, and you know what, Ive raided with various mixes of healers, and you know what? We all shared in the burden of reviving people AND removing debuffs, cause that is how you work together, you share the burden, that is what you do as a healer in a group of more then one healer, you share the burden, you do not seem like a healer or someone who mains a healer cause you dont seem to get it :/

Also, "One healer debuffing erasing while the other heals" Umm....wat? Why have more then one healer if you are gonna do that -.-

Addendum: Look it is clear that we dont agree with one another, if your party is fine with one Healer being an actual healer and the other one being a Phoenix Down, be my guest, I however do not agree to that mindset, I think its lazy, irresponsible and unfair.

[Ootarion]

Checked your character and you don't even seem to have any healer raid gear so yeah, please tell me more about how I'm the one who doesn't know anything about raid healing and how I am "lazy, irresponsible and unfair".

Because I play and party regularly with one of the best healers Ive ever known, and when we both heal, we share in the burden and both give it our all as any reasonable player would, we dont make one do more work then the other, not in the slightest, if you and your peeps are fine with doing that, that is your choice, but neither myself, nor he, would ever do that, as we would find it lazy, irresponsible and unfair, and we've never told eachother to do less work then the other healer, and I agree with him, if there is more then one healer, you share in the burden.

Also I dont know where you are seeing my profile, but if you are using this Forum's Profile system then hahaha you are wrong, I am lvl 60 as White Mage and Astrologian, I get people praising me for my skill as a healer both In Raids and outside Raids. This forum seems to be showing me as a lvl 55 Conjurer or lvl 47 White Mage or whatever, but lul that system is wrong :P

[Aramina]

Because I play and party regularly with one of the best healers Ive ever known, and when we both heal, we share in the burden and both give it our all as any reasonable player would, we dont make one do more work then the other, not in the slightest, if you and your peeps are fine with doing that, that is your choice, but neither myself, nor he, would ever do that, as we would find it lazy, irresponsible and unfair, and we've never told eachother to do less work then the other healer, and I agree with him, if there is more then one healer, you share in the burden.

Did you read Taika's post? If she and her cohealer attempted to share all responsibility either the tank would die if they were both trying to dispel debuffs, or the dps with debuffs would die if they were both trying to heal the tank. Not sorting who is to focus on what is irresponsible.

But if it is the case, then how is that even remotely both healers doing 100% work?

Because they both did the job they needed to do for the party to win the fight.

[Ootarion]

Did you read Taika's post? If she and her cohealer attempted to share all responsibility either the tank would die if they were both trying to dispel debuffs, or the dps with debuffs would die if they were both trying to heal the tank. Not sorting who is to focus on what is irresponsible.

Because they both did the job they needed to do for the party to win the fight.

Look, I need to point out that when Ive done raids, I make sure people are topped off on health constantly, and when I can, I removed Debuffs as well, and both myself and my friend would do so, we would heal and debuff as needed, there wasnt just one of us doing that, but it probably helped that we were on Voice chat doing so, so we delegated. But we both removed debuffs, and healed, and revived, and people scarcely died. I wouldnt carelessly attempt to remove a debuff first if someone is close to dead, I heal them first then remove a debuff, I do this in 4 person and 8+ person parties, and it's never failed.

Added: Look, Taika, I clearly have offended you, which was never at all my intention from the beginning so for that I apologize. But answer me this, as a healer yourself, with your co healer, are either of you EVER doing both healing and debuff removal? Because in every instance Ive ever done where I had a Co Healer, we've both healed and removed debuffs, and any parties Ive been in, have rarely lost. So forgive me for not seeing the sense in what you are saying. It has never had to apply to parties Ive been in, my success rate is extremely high, so forgive me for my confusion.

[Taika]

Added: Look, Taika, I clearly have offended you, which was never at all my intention from the beginning so for that I apologize. But answer me this, as a healer yourself, with your co healer, are either of you EVER doing both healing and debuff removal?

Don't worry, you haven't offended me! I found it funny.

Like I said, in each fight, we know what will happen in each part and then we agree how it's best to divide our responsibilities in that part. Like in that example: we know that at the same time 2 people will need Esuna and the tank will need healing. If we'd both try to do both without agreeing who does what, we'd risk neglecting one of those tasks. How we divide our responsibilities varies from fight to fight, but in all fights so far we've both at least done some healing at some points. Apart from A9S Faust which he solo heals 100% while I go 100% DPS. The point is, we're both aiming for 100% activity while being as useful as possible to our group as a healer team. Maybe this is enough of off topic now?

Because in every instance Ive ever done where I had a Co Healer, we've both healed and removed debuffs, and any parties Ive been in, have rarely lost. So forgive me for not seeing the sense in what you are saying. It has never had to apply to parties Ive been in, my success rate is extremely high, so forgive me for my confusion.

Have you done any Coil or Alexander Savage while they've been current (pre-echo)? Because that's the context I'm talking about. I understand you're confused if you haven't actually done any content that's challenging enough that the healers will have to split their responsibilities to succeed. But in that case, why talk down about raid healing to people who are actually much more experienced in it than you are...

Don't think of yourself and your cohealer as different entities, think of yourself as a team and what is the most that can be done by that team.

Exactly, you need to work as an actual team instead of two people who are both doing exact same things at exact same times. That's an extremely inefficient way to heal anything.

[Fawkes]

You can't really plan your raid strategies for failure, you make the most optimal plan and stick with it. It's like saying "we need to have a SMN in the group, otherwise what if both healers die..." In raids, if one healer dies, it's generally game over in the first place (in progression phase before overgearing, I mean).

I used Coil 10 and A3S as my examples (those are so far the only raid fights I remember which required Esuna). If the Esuna healer would have died in either, there really wouldn't have been a point in the other having the spell available (well at least in A3S, not sure how well I remember Coil 10 ).

This whole system seems like it only makes sense for 8 person statics, while being a detriment to all other players. And it isn't even giving a benefit to those static players, it just doesn't hinder them.

[Aramina]

This whole system seems like it only makes sense for 8 person statics, while being a detriment to all other players. And it isn't even giving a benefit to those static players, it just doesn't hinder them.

Yes and no. I can see why you (general you) would consider it a detriment, but I don't see it that way because for non-difficult content you can take your basics+whatever and that's fine. Taking the "perfect skill combination" is really only relevant in higher tier content. That's not to say that I think you are wrong in how you feel... just I can kinda see where they were going with it.