About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

[Fawkes]

the main reason for it to become a role skill was to help with button bloat. Why have 3 buttons that do the same thing, when you can drop it into a pool of skills for all healers and make 1 button do the same thing? Its not about meaningful choices or any of the other bologna that the thread is talking about. It makes sence, and I applaud SE for doing the change. People act like healers had crazy choices for cross-class skills as it was, and none of them you're losing besides Virus.. and even that is just being moved around to another role.

You don't have Esuna, Leeches, and Exalted Detriment on the same hotbar, they are used by different jobs. Combining them does nothing for button bloat. I already have all three in the same hotbar position for muscle memory reasons. I'm not going to gain any hotbar space because I'm never going to move esuna from that spot, even if I do happen to unequip it it'll just be there but grayed out.

[Gemina]

You don't have Esuna, Leeches, and Exalted Detriment on the same hotbar, they are used by different jobs. Combining them does nothing for button bloat. I already have all three in the same hotbar position for muscle memory reasons. I'm not going to gain any hotbar space because I'm never going to move esuna from that spot, even if I do happen to unequip it it'll just be there but grayed out.

This^

It doesn't reduce button bloat. It reduces the number of options a healer gets to choose from for their role slots, and similar to what Fawkes stated, it is doubtful anyone will modify their hotbars due to muscle memory. Especially controller users, which is the reason why button bloat is a concern in the first place.

Consolidating tier skills like stone 1-4 makes sense because all the skills belong to one job. This DOES reduce button bloat. Consolidating the same skill that belongs to different jobs does the exact opposite.

[Ootarion]

I'm getting MP recover, esuna, protect, MP cost 0 (I forgot the name lol) and I still one slot left to choose. I think people are overreacting tô the changes because they Will have tô readapt to It, and mostrar were comfortable with their rotation. Só let's wait for SB and feel the changes, then give a proper feedback

Some of us dont need to wait, and none of us should wait to see what SB changes are bringing, for a possibility that is an OBVIOUSLY stupid oversight. You dont make skills like Esuna, Exalted Detriment, and Leeches Cross Role skills that you can choose to go with or without, furthermore, judging by what has been said by most people in this thread have responded with, none of them including me, want to CONSTANTLY change our skills around for different fights, just no, that is dumb and oh, hello, no one has perfect memory, people will forget to put certain things back on their bar. The answer is no, SE shouldnt do this, either they fix this obvious foul up, or they WILL lose people. This is by far one of the single most DUMBEST decisions Ive seen game devs make. NO HEALER in their right mind is EVER going to into ANY fight without a means of removing detrimental effects like stuns, sleeps, DoTs (some of which are lethal if you dont remove them as they do a lot yet understandable amounts of damage), silences, pacifications and so on. I am a very skilled healer but you know what? Just to prove a point, Im going to start doing any dungeon, early game or late game I heal between now and SB and NEVER use Esuna (White Mage) or Exalted Detriment (Astrologian) to remove debuffs and DoTs and we'll see how long it takes for people to chew me out for not curing those effects.

Addendum: How bout we take all taunts and ALL OTHER enmity generators such as Rage of Halone from tanks by making all of them Cross Role skills hmmm? I mean a tank shouldnt always need one of its core abilities to be effective yeah? Dont need Flash, Heavy Swing, Skull Sunder, Overpower, Provoke right? I mean goodness, why would a tank need effective means to generate aggro, they can just wack stuff with regular attacks. Granted I see that Provoke and a new skill (i think) called Ultimatum are now Cross Role, but thats only proving my point. SKILLS LIKE THESE should NOT be something you can choose, they should be and should ALWAYS BE a core part of the build, no one IS GOING TO IGNORE THEM, I see so many abilities in these Cross Roles that wont ever get used, because important ones have been thrown into the Cross Role system and no healer will ever go without Esuna or Protect which ARE IMPORTANT, and no tank worth their salt is going to go without provoke or Ultimatum and if ANY of them do, oh....my....god take me out of the party now, cause A) I wont be a tank or dps in a party where even just ONE HEALER is without a means of removing a debuff or DoT from a party member and if I am a Healer which I almost always am I B) Will not condone healing a tank who is not using the cooldowns they should be using like Rampart or their Taunts. I say all this out of refusal to support any healer or tank who will do that, and out of open refusal to support this HEAVILY flawed idea that SE came up with.

Addendum pt2: On the subject of abilities like Luminiferous Aether (AST) and Saints Shroud (WHM) the fact they were all turned into Lucid Dreaming which is a Cross Role skill as well, is also just as stupid, whose gonna go without a means of replenishing MP if you run out? Ethers....umm...no, not nearly as effective. These are yet more important abilities that no healer is gonna go without, not unless SE has dramatically decreased MP consumption across the board to compensate for these being Cross Roles, otherwise, no, absolutely not, wrong, fix this SE.

[Erakir]

It seems like a...very odd decision to me to have made, to say the least.

At the moment, I would have preferred something akin to a Esuna-trait in its stead, where you could take it if you felt like you were going to be cleansing with any sort of regular frequency, but not be completely out of luck without it.

Things like -
Make it instant or an ability (casts so fast as it is, but still)
Give a boon when cleansing, such as a small heal, or a haste to you or the target to help offset the time you spent cleansing
Give it a radius to turn it into a small AoE
Give it the ability to remove multiple debuffs (Because nobody likes what happens when a pull has 5 archer mobs)
Give Esuna a CD (10s?) to begin with and have this 'trait' remove it
Just as some 30-second, 0-thought basic ideas that could be refined. There are countless others. I'd suggest a new ability to begin with, but that goes against the whole bloat thing they're trying to get rid of~

As it is, it's little more than a checkbox to tick if you believe there's anything worth having it for in a fight/dungeon (and going in blind, that's always a "Yes just in case"). Abilities like that being choices aren't fun or interesting to play around. It hamstrings you. Even if unlikely to offset the potential loss, you can gear towards or try to enhance your gameplay enough to, say, not have to take Lucid Dreaming if you don't feel like it. Same thing for new-divine-seal. You might never actually do that in practice due to their relative strength, mind you, but philosophically it's there.

There's no such practical option with cleansing debuffs, unless they redo potions/other consumables and expect people to start carrying them around to spam them on each other, or they make nearly every debuff only apply on failing at dodging a mechanic so you have a way around it. Currently that is not the case with fights like Dun Scaith Doom Spam Flyer that specifically have "Cleanse me or else" debuffs that regularly go out. You're not going to outgear Throttle. This is a basic part of the toolkit you now have to opt-in to receive that has already been designed around for 60 levels of content. There's no other practical way of performing that part of the kit without it.

Nothing's going to be rewarding about selecting to bring Esuna. It's just going to feel punishing if you don't.

[Vulcwen]

About losing people, they'll lose people for any change they make, regardless of how good it is or not, there will always be people that find things so little reason to quit the game over. IMO these skills being in the cross-role list is underwhelming, but it's by far not the end of the world.

It's a situational skill, but potentially essential, as not having it can cause instant deaths/wipes. However the same can be said about provoke, which has been a cross-class skill for a long time, and continues in the cross-role system.. nobody complains about that being a cross-role skill. There will be stupid people not slotting it when they absolutely need it and then make weak defenses about why they're not slotting it, and refuse to slot it even after the wipe. You can kick those people from the group.

The thing about the role skill system is simple, they want skills in there that all jobs in that role can find useful. They also don't want to develop too many new skills, so obviously existing skills will end up in there. Essential skills, or those that were already cross-class are the first ones that would cross your mind of things that would be useful.

Further, moving an existing skill to cross-role, and giving nothing in return, does reduce the amount of buttons for the job that sacrificed that skill, as the net result is less additional actions. Note, I'm not using the phrasing "button bloat" there, bloat exists where a skill doesn't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, or when a similar interaction can be achieved with less buttons without damaging gameplay.

[Ootarion]

Same thing for new-divine-seal. You might never actually do that in practice due to their relative strength, mind you, but philosophically it's there.

Its not a New Divine Seal per say, they've taken Divine Seal away from WHMs as a core ability and made it yet ANOTHER Cross Role skill that you would be foolish to not take. Astrologians had their own version in the form of Synastry, but again, that was changed, Synastry is still there but the heal buff component is gone. The 20% heal buff is GOING to be something that is always used, like Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming, whose NOT gonna use these? Im sorry but no matter how skilled you are, you will eventually run out of MP and Ethers of any level are not gonna cut it.

[Ootarion]

Further, moving an existing skill to cross-role, and giving nothing in return, does reduce the amount of buttons for the job that sacrificed that skill, as the net result is less additional actions. Note, I'm not using the phrasing "button bloat" there, bloat exists where a skill doesn't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, or when a similar interaction can be achieved with less buttons without damaging gameplay.

But it's NEEDLESS, no one will ever go without Esuna, Protect or Lucid Dreaming if they are a healer, they wont, those spells/abilities are FAR to important, I main a healer, and even when Im at the top of my game being as efficient as possible with my MP, i will start to run out of MP if I dont have a heavy means of regenerating it, and Ive been consistently praised for my healing, so I can say with no shred of vanity, that if I stopped using the Ewer Card or Luminiferous Aether, id run out of MP, granted I dont run out of MP during mob pulls, I save my MP regens for bosses IF i need them, but whether people are paying attention or not, they have come times where i didnt have any choice but to burn my MP to save people, as it is, im EXTREMELY efficient with my MP but there again have been times where I drop below 50% and heck, have even reached 10% and that was with being as efficient as humanly possible, but I can only be so efficient when people start being stupid and standing in every AoE imaginable, what then? If I have no means of MP regen, the party is screwed cause the healer, through no fault of the healer, has run out of mp.

Addendum: Ive already spoken to several healers, who have already stated they are taking Esuna, Protect, Lucid Dreaming, and the Heal Buff as ALL the time abilities. As a result, most of these neat and new Cross Roles WONT SEE USE! Also Button Bloat? Ummm HAHAHAHA the only classes Ive played that have had button bloat issues are classes like Scholar and Summoner, Scholar in that they have access to so many DoTs as do Summoners, but Astrologian and White Mage? HAHAHAHA no I have no excessive button issues because there are none!

[Taika]

In any fight where Esuna is needed, both healers should have it.

Why though? In any raid fight there's been a need for Esuna (like Coil 10(?) and A3S), it's always been responsibility of 1 healer to use it, at least in my groups.

[IttyBitty]

Esuna is potentially critical. It's not like Rescue, which you can live with or without. You can fail instances by not having it. It deserves more of a place in our hotbars than garbage like Repose, which is so niche that I haven't used it since Heavensward released.

[Ootarion]

Why though? In any raid fight there's been a need for Esuna (like Coil 10(?) and A3S), it's always been responsibility of 1 healer to use it, at least in my groups.

Ummmm and if the ONE HEALER that has Esuna dies? But the other healer is still alive, but has no Esuna, what if in the time it takes that healer to revive the other healer, multiple people die from a DoT or other crippling Debuff? Hmm? Well? Unless they plan to remove the Animation/Time Delay of the Revival process, which adds an extra 5 or so seconds after you accept the revive, people....can....die.