WHM might be meta

[Sighearth]

Hm interesting but I dont think WHM will do 1.3x SCH dps. They will do more ofc, but not that much of difference, lets look in WHM and SCH potencies for 1 min dpsing (24 gcds) (assuming both have the same magic damage)

24 GCDs ( 1min)
------------------------------------------
aero3 x 2.5 -> 2.5 * 370 = 925
Assize x 1 = 300
StoneIV x 21.5 = 5590
WHM total => 5590 + 925 + 300 = 6815 potency/min
---------------------------------------------
SCH: 24 GCDs
Bio2 x 2 -> 350 * 2 = 700
Miasma x 2.5 -> 300 * 2,5 = 750
Energy Drain x 3 -> 150 * 3 = 450
1 x Shadow flare = 250
Broil2 x 19.5 -> 230 * 19.5 = 4485
SCH total => 6635 potency/min

That means the WHM can do 180 potency/min more than SCH. Now if we count chain strategem we get 20% more crit for 15 seconds with 90 secs cd, lets assume that this buff have 100% up time ( which means the duration goes 6x higher and the crit chance 6 x lower to maintain the proportion) that mean we will have 3.3% more crit for 90 seconds with 90 seconds cd (100% uptime). What is better to bring? 180 extra potency/min or 3.3% more crit for the entire fight?

Lets assume the fight have a duration of 10 min, so WHM would bring 10 x 180 = extra 1800 potency. for 10 min we would have 24 * 10 = 240 gcds, with 3.3% crit it is expected that we get around 3 critted gcds for every 100 gcds, which for 240 gcds means approximately 7 gcds should crit for every person in the party. So is 8 x 7 = 56 gcds should crit ( for the entire 10 min duration encounter) because of the SCH buff, for every crit will have 50% more potency for that gcd, which means 56 gcds will have 50% more potency.

Now this part gets tricky, because higher the potency, higher the 50% increase will be so it will depends of those gcds that the entire party will use. For that increase to surpass the 1800 extra potency from the WHM, the sum of all increased potencies of those 56 gcds must be higher than 1800 as follows: 56 x 0.5 (potency) > 1800
0.5 x potency > 1800 / 56
potency > 32.14 / 0.5
potency > 64.2

We can see that by doing : 64.2 potency with crit is 96.3 ( 64.2 * 1.5) that means we get extra 32.1 potency per gcd, now making it for those 56 gcds we have 56 * 32.1 = 1797.6 which is less than 1800 as the proof.
Ok if we get the next whole number potency = 65 potency we get (65 * 1.5 = 97.5) so (97.5 - 65 = 32.5) now, (32.5 * 56 = 1820 potency) ( which is higher than 1800).

My conclusion: If every party member can use a gcd with 65 potency or higher than SCH will contribute more to dps than the extra potencies that WHM have. As 65 potency is a pretty low value, I dont see WHM getting over SCH in the meta from the DPS perspective.

[MsTanya]

Its more likely than not that stratagem is multiplicative, not a flat 20%, and you forgot aero 2 in the whm rotation, its 50 potency base hit and 50 potency per hit over 18 seconds for a total of 350 potency. I'm not gonna hardcore math anything but its a lot closer than you would think. But yeah ast gonna beat both other jobs out if the media tour values remain as is so it almost doesn't matter anyway ><.

[QooEr]

some math

did you see the excel spreadsheet? dps is never linear, and neither whm or scholar have rotations that reset at the same time. scholars rotation resets every 360 seconds and white mage's every 600 seconds. therefore in order to be fair one must get the average pps for scholar and white mage individually, from their own rotation. not only youre neglecting the existence of prescence of mind, but your analysis of gcds doesnt even account for spell speed.


white mage's potency per minute is not 6635 at 0 spell speed. it's 7092 (and thats not even counting cleric stance)
your numbers are also tilted because scholar gets 3 extra energy drains at the beginning of the fight

its also not as simple as how you put it for strategem. youre calculating it as if crit chance was 0 on every party member and strategem suddenly brought crits into the equation. an increase of 3.3 vs 0 is going to be way more impactful than an increase of 0.165 vs 0.1705. not only that, but youre disregarding the fact that critical hit rate (the stat) also affects how strong crits hit.

since we are approaching the beginning of the expansion, i used data from the beginning of heavensward. quoting myself,
After looking at gordias fflogs and 3.1 bis stats, and with help from some of dervy’s formulas, the average crit chance back then was approximately 0.165 and average crit damage around 1.565. The formula for the impact of critical hits on dps is crit chance * crit damage + 1 - crit chance, which means crits increased rdps by 1.093225 during early patches.
With this info, we can calculate stratagems average rdps impact.
Stratagem increases the chance to crit on the boss by 20%, for 15 seconds, every 90 seconds. Therefore, average crit chance increases by (15*1.2+75)/90 as fights approach to infinity. Stratagem affects rdps as follows.
(15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance * crit damage + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * crit chance
Substitute variables and we get
(15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 * 1.565 + 1 - (15*1.2+75)/90 * 0.165 = 1.0963325 rdps increase by crits
Substract that to the increase without stratagem and we get a difference of 0.31075% rdps.
Of course, stratagem’s effectiveness will increase as we get more crit to stack. Current values for crits tend to be around 22.38% crit chance and 1.62 for crit damage, which would make stratagem a 0.46% rdps increase for the later patches of stormblood. (i am assuming stratagem is multiplicative since its a debuff on the boss and not a buff on party members.)

[Sighearth]

Math

I assumed 3 Energy drains only not 6, so you have aetherflow off cd every minute from start. As someone mentioned before I forgot to add aero 2 ( I thought aero 3 would replace it). Yes I do not count for Presence of mind as I'm not counting for buffed gcds from other pt member that would make the potency bonus for crits higher. The metric I used for comparison was the most potency one healer can do in a minute.

For the crit chance I assumed the extra chance coming from the chain stratagem does not require your crit chance because will just add up to that ( even if its 0). Of course its speculation until the release if that skill will be multiplicative or additive. After the first minutes into the fight your dps will not increase but only decrease until your rotation resets, then you will have the scenario as the beginning of the fight ( with everything off cd) since this is the peak or opener of both healers, the rotation reset in different times but a reset will not surpass this opener.

If we take the reset in consideration as you said 360 s for SCH and 600 s for WHM , SCH will reach its peak more times than WHM, while WHM will reach a little bit higher with less frequency. Assuming your value of 7092 potency/rotation (600 s) vs 6635 potency/rotation (360) we have 1.6 SCH rotation for every 1 WHM rotation. That 0.6 extra rotation leads up to 3981 potency every (360 s) and the difference of both peaks is 457 potency for the WHM every (600 s)

[QooEr]

stuff

I went back to the spreadsheet and noticed some mistakes on my part. (i forgot to multiply scholars rotation for the 10 mins times 600/360, but i also had strategem calculated wrongly on scholar and also unfairly didnt give crits to whm) I corrected the spreadsheet and white mage still outdpsed scholar and strategem. maybe not so drastically anymore, but it still does.

whm dps > sch dps + strategem rdps impact
1.0588 * (0.0737 rdps) > (0.0737 rdps) + (0.0031075 rdps)
0.07803356 rdps > 0.0768075 rdps

[LegoTechnic]

I went back to the spreadsheet and noticed some mistakes on my part. (i forgot to multiply scholars rotation for the 10 mins times 600/360, but i also had strategem calculated wrongly on scholar and also unfairly didnt give crits to whm) I corrected the spreadsheet and white mage still outdpsed scholar and strategem. maybe not so drastically anymore, but it still does.

whm dps > sch dps + strategem rdps impact
1.0588 * (0.0737 rdps) > (0.0737 rdps) + (0.0031075 rdps)
0.07803356 rdps > 0.0768075 rdps

What formula are you using for your crit rate and what values for BiS gear set? 16.8% is low for a BiS set (my personal gear values give me 20.8%).

In your spreadsheet, Shadow Flare should be used an additional time for five total rather than four. If your cycle duration for SCH is 365 seconds then it should be used at least 6 times for once a minute, with the 6th application being ignored due to being placed at the end of the cycle and unable to tick.

Finally is it your point that a WHM will do more single target DPS than a SCH in SB? Because you don't really need a spreadsheet for that given both their primary DoT and their direct damage spell are higher potency than SCH's equivalents, so the comparison is really whether or not Shadowflare and Energy Drain can make up for the damage done by Assize plus the boost from Presence of Mind and whatever the leftover damage deficit may be. Also, the primary benefit of Chain Strategem isn't to boost the SCH's personal DPS, but that of the entire raid. Narrowing it down to solo encounters is a little disingenuous for its purpose.

[QooEr]

What formula are you using for your crit rate and what values for BiS gear set? 16.8% is low for a BiS set (my personal gear values give me 20.8%).

In your spreadsheet, Shadow Flare should be used an additional time for five total rather than four. If your cycle duration for SCH is 365 seconds then it should be used at least 6 times for once a minute, with the 6th application being ignored due to being placed at the end of the cycle and unable to tick.

Finally is it your point that a WHM will do more single target DPS than a SCH in SB? Because you don't really need a spreadsheet for that given both their primary DoT and their direct damage spell are higher potency than SCH's equivalents, so the comparison is really whether or not Shadowflare and Energy Drain can make up for the damage done by Assize plus the boost from Presence of Mind and whatever the leftover damage deficit may be. Also, the primary benefit of Chain Strategem isn't to boost the SCH's personal DPS, but that of the entire raid. Narrowing it down to solo encounters is a little disingenuous for its purpose.

you can be able to cast another shadow flare, but since its a dot with no initial potency it would do 0 damage. also shadow glare is going to be on a 90 second cooldown, which makes 360/90=4 times to use shadow flare. which means i actually shouldve counted for THREE shadow flares and not 4

my point was Not to show that it just did more damage. my point was that whm did enough more damage to compensate for not having stratagem. i compared the raid dps impact of stratagem + scholar's personal dps and compared it to white mage's personal dps. which is why i did whm dps > sch dps + stratagem rdps impact.

i looked at gordias gear. since we are going to the beginning of the expac i used stats from the beginning of the expac. most bis had about 800-900 crit, so i picked 850. the formula i used was dervy's ((CRIT-354)/(858*5))+0.05 for crit chance and ((CRIT-354)/(858*5))+1.45 for crit damage
at the end of the paragraph tho, i did include what the rate would be at 1100 crit.

Of course, stratagem’s effectiveness will increase as we get more crit to stack. Current values for crits tend to be around 22.38% crit chance and 1.62 for crit damage, which would make stratagem a 0.46% rdps increase for the later patches of stormblood.

if you want to do the math with that, we get
1.0588 * (0.0737 ) > (0.0737 ) + (0.0046 )
0.07803356 > 0.0783
which is not true anymore, hence why i said during the early tiers of savage.