[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[babycakin]

^.^ This is an awesome idea!

Not only would the game be keep the existing classes intact, but we would be introduced to the classic Final Fantasy job staples that the fanbase have been used to since the beginning. I also can totally see a huge array of customization using this implementation. Well done!

[Judge_Xero]

I also like the way this could be implemented. Cheers on your thoughtfulness. I hope this and some of the other ideas floating around are what SE is thinking of as well. I especially like the way this change could keep the Base Classes in the loop. Although I am not for, Dragoon + Sword, or Black Mage + Axe. But I guess if the penalties are well implemented, people could choose whatever they like. I guess even though I wouldn't feel like a Dragoon while using Bronze Knuckes, someone would. So maybe they'll keep that option open.

[Carpe]

Although I am not for, Lancer + Sword, or Black Mage + Axe. But I guess if the penalties are well implemented, people could choose whatever they like. I guess even though I wouldn't feel like a Lancer while using Bronze Knuckes, someone would. So maybe they'll keep that option open.

Thanks, I just want to point out though that you can't mix Titles with Titles or Weapon Class with Weapon Class. You can only have Title/Weapon Class. So Lancer/Sword wouldn't be possible, but Dragoon/Lancer or Dragoon/Sword would. Lancer could only use LANCE weapons which would be actual lances or weapons that would be so similar to lances that we would throw them into the same category of weapon type LANCE (Like my idea of making Scythes type AXE or type LANCE so you don't have to introduce a totally new weapon type).

[Eremor]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have a few concerns/questions for you.

If you change physical level into job level does that mean that your stats (STR/VIT/DEX/...) are going to be determined by your Job level? What happens if I change jobs? These physical stats become increased/decreased according to my other job levels?

-my problem with this is that there isn't going to be enough Job-specific abilities to learn to take me from 1-50 in a Job AND in a Weapon Class (unless you want to throw a ton of abilities/spells onto jobs and leave weapons closer to what they were in FFXI just learning some TP attacks). You need physical development to take quite a long time so as to have a nice stat progression. If you are going to remove physical levels I personally think it would be better to then have your physical stats be determined by your Weapon Class rank since it already goes from 1-50. But, then you get a problem like having a maxed out DRK change weapons from r50 LNC to r30 MRD and have all his stats reduced because of this just because he changed his weapon class. I think this puts too much limitations on people.

Also, you're saying that the skills/weapons you equip will determine your job. So for example, if I equip a sword, shield, and some abilities like rampart, heal, protect, etc. The game determines (FOR ME?) that I am a paladin?

-This is way more restrictive than what I am suggesting. In my proposal I choose to be a paladin (this gives me some specific traits/abilities) and then I pick from the weapon skills that I've learned what (non-class-specific) abilities I want to use with my paladin. With the extended favoring system I'm talking about, certain "paladin builds" are going to be way more effective than others, but this system doesn't constrain you as much as what I think you are suggesting, it allows you to go against the grain or more specifically adapt to a very specific situation.

First off, I was under the impression that SE was planning to do away with physical levels entirely anyway. But with this double class system that does raise the question of which would give you stat points. Perhaps it could be both, you get a few points when you rank up your discipline and then a few more points when you level up your job.

Second, I wasn't considering making jobs into whole new classes in their own right, each with as many skills as the disciplines. Jobs would grant mostly passive benefits that would help to specialize a character for a certain role, with the possibility of giving them a handful of job exclusive skills to make them a little more interesting.

Finally, as far as choosing your own job, I see it as basically the same as the current system. Do you actually choose your discipline from a list? No, you choose your weapon and then the game sets your discipline automatically. In this case you would choose your skills and then the game would set your job automatically. Admittedly this may cause some unexpected job changes if you don't already know what skill sets go with what jobs, but that could be interesting itself, SE could introduce an unspecified number of jobs and leave it to us to figure out how to unlock them. Ultimately, there should be enough skills and combinations that you would have to know exactly what skills went with a certain job in order to choose that job. This could get annoying if you have to swap out 15-20 skills in order to change jobs, but skill swaps can be accomplished fairly quickly through macros. Ideally the required skills for a job would not include the basic weapon attacks, thereby allowing you to use any weapon in combination with any job so long as you keep the other required skills equipped.

It is true that this would be more restricting then a completely free job selection, but isn't that the whole point of having a specific job with it's own style and identity. But I would still like to see some customization, as I mentioned, there shouldn't be more then 15-20 required skills (possibly even less) for any one job, leaving the remaining 10-15 slots free for skills of your own choice. And as I mentioned, there would be a catch-all job for people who wanted to completely customize their skill set (assuming their desired skill set didn't match any of the requirements for another job, and if it does then it could be assumed that that job fills the role that person wants to play anyway. ex. if you fill up your skills with offensive actions and wind up being a DRK without realizing it, then DRK is probably a good job for you)

[WintersMoondancer]

I really do like the idea of taking a base weapon class like MRD (Axe user), once it hits R20, then you can quest training to learn either BST or DRK skills. So while you have the base of a MRD and you are learning to walk the path of a DRK, the MRD weapon class still ranks up and you earn job points to becoming a better DRK. Then if you decide to for go playing with other and want to solo, you can still take your R50 MRD weapon class, and earn job points towards becoming a BST. Your BST job is only gimped in that it hasn't learned all the new abilities yet, but as Job Points are gained then you rank up.

Introducing a few more weapon classes or adding weapons to existing classes (Axe & Scythe, Sword & Dagger, Bow & Gun, Wands & Staffs, Hand to Hand & Clubs, Whips & Flails, etc) and each one can split off to a new path.

But what if you just do away with MRD, GLA, etc, names and instead name the classes after the weapon? So you would be a Sword Specialist and from there you can train to become a SAM (Great Katana), NIN (Katana), PLD (enhanced swords like Excalibur for example). Axe Specialist to become BST, VIK (or actual MRD), DRK, etc

I guess I'm probably thinking more along the lines of FF Tactics. I really did like the idea of having a variety of jobs around that can really make it diverse instead of having everyone the same type of job. To me more variety can make up some really unique party play where we can really express they style you want to play with the jobs you create.

I think that was also the thing I liked about FFXI, there were so many different jobs that could be played.

[kukurumei]

Sounds like a whole complicated mess to me. It's like patching a wound by inventing a system where you are patching bandaids in complex patterns.

The make a boat out of duck tape analogy comes to mind. It really doesn't solve much of the basic problems.

How would people switch back and forth? how would they properly allocate their traits and skills? How would the stats combine and detract.

It's like the physical level problem, you end up getting over balanced and make it not matter.

It's just...complex.

And frankly it's not all that different from FF11. With weapons skills giving WS and job levels handling skills/traits.

All the proposal really does is spawn tons of combinations in an attempt to hide the existing combinations.

If such a radical change is wanted, there are tons of better way then to graft it onto the existing armory system.

A better way to do 2 tier system again is to eradicate the armoury and skill system again.

Audit all the existing skills, and then group them into 2 groups: Weapons and Jobs. And Done you have your system. Of course when I explain it that way it sounds horrible generic...which it is.

I see a lot of solutions are basically trying to add complexion onto the existing system in an attempt to hide the problems. That's a self defeating formula.

The best way to reinvent the job system is to either re-organize it, or scrap it for a new one.

IF you really want this proposal to work...
A hard line has to be drawn after auditing and revamping every skill

Weapon type = skills
Job type = traits

Let's say you want...

bow welding blackmage an ARC/BLM
Arc would have quick knock, mult shot, etc
BLM will provide
elemental damage increase
Elemental enchanting of regular arrows (cool down)

This would of course do away with the armoury system and the skill system pretty much. Even if you do allow some cross skill equipping, there is too much potential of repeating the same "super class" over and over again.

[Cairdeas]

Sounds like a whole complicated mess to me. It's like patching a wound by inventing a system where you are patching bandaids in complex patterns.

The make a boat out of duck tape analogy comes to mind. It really doesn't solve much of the basic problems.

Yes it does there has been answers for all of your questions in this thread atleast once.

How would people switch back and forth? how would they properly allocate their traits and skills? How would the stats combine and detract.

A Slot by itself on the Skill Assignment menu could be carved out where you slot the job you want into.
As for stats they can remove the physical level and replace stat alocation with the Blue Mage Stat/Trait system where certain stats are given for certain skills being equipped, and equipping a certain pattern of skills gives you access to special traits. The Armoury System at its core was beta tested as Blue Mage in XI they just forgot to reincorporate the stats on skills. You can further this that any skills that favor your Job grant more stats, or skills that do not favor grant none.

Audit all the existing skills, and then group them into 2 groups: Weapons and Jobs. And Done you have your system. Of course when I explain it that way it sounds horrible generic...which it is.

This is actually how it is now. Its just they added flair to the individual weapon names by calling them "Gladiator" (Latin: Sword User) "Marauder" (French: Frank Axe Users), Archer (Latin: Bow User) Etc.

I see a lot of solutions are basically trying to add complexion onto the existing system in an attempt to hide the problems. That's a self defeating formula.

The best way to reinvent the job system is to either re-organize it, or scrap it for a new one.

Thats what they did and a lot of us enjoy it but a few people complain.

IF you really want this proposal to work...
A hard line has to be drawn after auditing and revamping every skill

Weapon type = skills
Job type = traits

Let's say you want...

bow welding blackmage an ARC/BLM
Arc would have quick knock, mult shot, etc
BLM will provide
elemental damage increase
Elemental enchanting of regular arrows (cool down)

This is what is being proposed...

This would of course do away with the armoury system and the skill system pretty much. Even if you do allow some cross skill equipping, there is too much potential of repeating the same "super class" over and over again.

Every MMO has min/maxers and munchkins You just gotta deal.

[Carpe]

Finally, as far as choosing your own job, I see it as basically the same as the current system. Do you actually choose your discipline from a list? No, you choose your weapon and then the game sets your discipline automatically. In this case you would choose your skills and then the game would set your job automatically. Admittedly this may cause some unexpected job changes if you don't already know what skill sets go with what jobs, but that could be interesting itself, SE could introduce an unspecified number of jobs and leave it to us to figure out how to unlock them. Ultimately, there should be enough skills and combinations that you would have to know exactly what skills went with a certain job in order to choose that job. This could get annoying if you have to swap out 15-20 skills in order to change jobs, but skill swaps can be accomplished fairly quickly through macros. Ideally the required skills for a job would not include the basic weapon attacks, thereby allowing you to use any weapon in combination with any job so long as you keep the other required skills equipped.

It is true that this would be more restricting then a completely free job selection, but isn't that the whole point of having a specific job with it's own style and identity. But I would still like to see some customization, as I mentioned, there shouldn't be more then 15-20 required skills (possibly even less) for any one job, leaving the remaining 10-15 slots free for skills of your own choice. And as I mentioned, there would be a catch-all job for people who wanted to completely customize their skill set (assuming their desired skill set didn't match any of the requirements for another job, and if it does then it could be assumed that that job fills the role that person wants to play anyway. ex. if you fill up your skills with offensive actions and wind up being a DRK without realizing it, then DRK is probably a good job for you)

I think what you're talking about is something similar to what Tanaka was implying in an old interview I read at ffxivcore:

We won't have the samurai as a job, because we don't have a job system. And we don't have a class like the Samurai. But it depends on how you're going to select your skills and developing your character. So when you reach a certain skill and/or gain certain skills, you will have a title for yourself. It may be Samurai or may not be - we cannot tell you that yet. So please look for an announcement in the future.

This seems like another possible way to go about doing things, but I feel like it would definitely be more restrictive that what we've been talking about so far. Some people might want that extra restriction while others don't, I guess that's a matter of personal taste.

As I suggested in the OP, with the title system I'm talking about you get a subtle guideline for creating your optimized build because you can go through the abilities that are available and choose only those that are favored for your class. I think some obvious "standard" builds will emerge, but they won't be dictated, the same way there is no particular build dictated in the game now (In the current system, I could equip an axe and use nothing but THM skills other than my basic mandatory axe attack).

I just don't want to limit someone's customization choices to just a couple of open slots after the mandatory core abilities have been set. What if I wanted to combine the passive/class-unique abilities from a particular title with abilities from weapons that weren't considered part of the "core" in the system you are suggesting?

The point you make about the skill swaps being annoying, but could be done more quickly through macros, points to a problem with the current interface. I think regardless of what system they implement the developers really need to let us save some custom skill loadouts through some GUI interface that is faster and simpler than having to write 3-4 macros to set up our 3 action bars/traits.

One question I have about your proposal is how do you implement PET classes like BST and SMN? If I had to set up a specific core of abilities in my loadout to unlock those two classes than I would think you would have to introduce some kind of pet master/caller weapon and have their abilities have similar shared names since there doesn't seem to be enough spells/abilities out there to justify having a separate BST weapon and a separate SMN weapon.

[Carpe]

Introducing a few more weapon classes or adding weapons to existing classes (Axe & Scythe, Sword & Dagger, Bow & Gun, Wands & Staffs, Hand to Hand & Clubs, Whips & Flails, etc) and each one can split off to a new path.

But what if you just do away with MRD, GLA, etc, names and instead name the classes after the weapon? So you would be a Sword Specialist and from there you can train to become a SAM (Great Katana), NIN (Katana), PLD (enhanced swords like Excalibur for example). Axe Specialist to become BST, VIK (or actual MRD), DRK, etc.

Yah, I think this Title/Weapon System leaves room for them adding more weapon classes in the future as well. They already seem to have plans for Musketeer and Arcanist (we got guilds for both in LL).

Musketeer -obviously would be your Gun weapon class.

Arcanist - I don't really know, but there is an Arcanist class in Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced 2 that uses rods as weapon and have spells like "Gravity"(Demi) and "Haste". So maybe they will be more of a like stat-based magic class.

Some new weapons I think would be too similar to existing weapon types so they should just be included in those weapon types as subtypes. (Great Sword = SWORD)

I'm totally for them re-translating the current classes (Gladiator, Lancer, Archer, etc.) and having them more literally be named after their weapon. (This is the way it's done in the original japanese, check out Cairdeas' post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033)

One thing I wonder if whether dagger really fits well into sword? Maybe this could be separated into a new weapon class in the future that could be general type for ninja weapons or similar.

I think they need to rethink the weapon abilities and really differentiate them more under some stronger themes. Like:

Sword = Accuracy/Damage Mitigation Buffs
Axe = Crit/Parry
Pug = Low-Stamina/Evasion

Those are just some quick examples, but more differentiation will eliminate some of the blandness associated with the weapon classes. Also it let's people further identify what someone's speciality is so you would know like a DRK/Sword is going for Accuracy/Consistent Damage and DRK/Axe is going for Random/Critical Damage. And it gives you more to think about when designing your character.

[Shura]

This is an interesting system indeed but as mentioned by someone already, i don't see the system fixing underline problems, the main issue being "Roles". When i say Roles im not referring to classes or jobs but im talking about the roles of those classes or jobs. The main reason the talk of reverting to old job names was brought up in the first place was being the current classes did not have defining roles to separate them from other similar classes; for example MRD/LNC or THM/CON. This system does not fix this problem, i don't see much of a difference between CON/WHM and THM/WHM or MRD/DRK and LNC/DRK.

this proposed system keeps the existing system, bring in old class names, and allow you to keep the freedom of customization which sounds fantastic in theory but it also keeps the flaws of the old system, which is no defined roles. Sure you can argue the job titles defines roles, but it really does not, it only sounds like it does because when you hear DRK or WHM, you assume DD or Healer but if the system can't differentiate properly between a CON/WHM and THM/WHM then it has the same flaws as the current system. The difference used as an example in the OPs post is , CON/BLM using instant dmg while THM/BLM uses over time dmg but this difference exists now without the addition of job titles.

I think you guys are trying to please everyone with this system, your trying to incorporate elements everyone wants, the current system, the ff job names, the freedom, and so on but this very line of thought is what caused the current system to fail. The Old Dev team tried to create a system which had so much freedom that in the end it didn't differentiate between the classes. I'm not trying to be all negative, because i really do think this is a wonderful system but i don't see it solving the underline problem of the current system and i think SE will see it in a similar fashion because i remember Yoshi-P said in an interview they only have one shot to introduce a better system, they don't have the luxury to change the system again after its introduced.