We're all DDs now >.>

[Aramina]

That being said, I agree something needs to change though as the DPS portion feels disjointed. Let's use Shaman from WoW as an example. They had a talent (at least back in WOTLK and I think Cata too), where their lightning bolt would reduce the mana cost of their I think chain heal. Something to that effect. It gave their DPS abilities some synergy with their healing toolkit. That being said, if we want healers to heal only, design the content that way, else, give us synergy between healing and DPS. Make it more rewarding for the healing aspect to DPS. That I feel would get people to DPS more if the healing and DPS toolkits worked together better. Right now (at least on bosses, with the pulls that occur on trash I find it harder to weave DPS in), it's usually a case of Adlo->E4E->Deployment pre-pull and then I'm DPSing for pretty much 100% of the boss fight.

Or disc priest/mistweaver monk, I would love to have a damage-to-heal model here. But yeah anything like telluric currents would work as a starter.

[Paladinleeds]

Or disc priest/mistweaver monk, I would love to have a damage-to-heal model here. But yeah anything like telluric currents would work as a starter.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the Priest/Monk models (I never played them, I was a Druid tank/Shaman healer person). But yeah, adding synergy between the toolkits would make them feel more in place, especially in group content. If they're going to keep us DPSing like I said, I'd love something like that (though personally I'd prefer fights to be made more healing intensive so unless you're cream of the crop or well overgeared, you won't have the ability to weave DPS in for healing required). And if that was the case, I think most people would be OK w/o healer DPS because the healer would still be maintaining good activity uptime.

WHM really depends on the party. If you have bad enough DPS, a WHM will go OOM. My friend asked for ballad from a brd doing 1200 AoE damage DPS (before ballad) to try to kill things at a reasonable rate. She started asking for that after the first boss in wall place.

With 3 good members? there is no mp management because things die too fast. Can say the same on say the likes of anything, Mp management only becomes a thing when people die too much.

Appreciate the info on WHM. I lean more towards SCH so that was where I felt more confident talking about it (at least in a casual content sense). Always good to hear from people who have strong knowledge of the other classes to chime in with their experiences and knowledge, helps build a fuller picture you know.

[Shurrikhan]

I would also like to add that DPS meters can also allow people to see output per target, damage dealt, damage taken, healing done and healing taken. I don't raid here, but I do in another game, and I can say having that information is indispensable.

We can see who is padding, who is actually killing adds, the needless damage people take, and if people are overhealing. Sure, people will tunnel, but in fights that require everyone to do mechanics, it's useful to see where you can tighten up your rotations, because most people that actually care about their performance should be able to watch themselves and not be chronically dead from mechanics.

Yep, more information is a good thing. And once you have access to the data, it can be reorganized in any sort of useful way to provide near endless information. Recount in WoW's a good start, and is already many degrees of information more thorough than ACT here, but anyone who's serious goes further unto warcraftlogs in order to see the exact timings of their ability applications, whether they should have held CDs, where they could trim sustain in favor of burst and avoid the wipe via add, how best to push phases, etc.

If we could be the first MMO to give serious information accessibility without needing addons, I think that'd be a decent selling point or even a keeper for many MMO-jumping raiders out there. And, more importantly, it'd go a long way to help any of those lower performing players who at least want to learn and do better, and probably pushing more players to care in the first place by taking away they're "you can't know that; I'll report you" excuse (when we're really just looking at how they're not attacking the vuln'ed target, never have buffs up nor ever apply their debuffs).

[Hamada]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the Priest/Monk models (I never played them, I was a Druid tank/Shaman healer person). But yeah, adding synergy between the toolkits would make them feel more in place, especially in group content. If they're going to keep us DPSing like I said, I'd love something like that (though personally I'd prefer fights to be made more healing intensive so unless you're cream of the crop or well overgeared, you won't have the ability to weave DPS in for healing required). And if that was the case, I think most people would be OK w/o healer DPS because the healer would still be maintaining good activity uptime.



Appreciate the info on WHM. I lean more towards SCH so that was where I felt more confident talking about it (at least in a casual content sense). Always good to hear from people who have strong knowledge of the other classes to chime in with their experiences and knowledge, helps build a fuller picture you know.

I added an edit, that was just expert roulette but ya that is the general idea for any healer. In a different Containment Bay Z1T9 (one my friend did, not my example) she too had issues with people taking tons of damage and raises. She was not drawing eweur and had to ask the other AST if they drew one give it to her. *sigh* now that I think about it, all the trials for our relics was pretty bad and and ULTRA slow for all the ones over 50 cap

Ofc it depends on content though but ya whm is the hardest pressed for MP. also think of it like this, what is better? mp wise? shadowflare> Bio II > Miasma> Bio > Bane> Miasma II or 3-5 holys?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip.

My apologies, but seeing as people are already trying to kill any sense of meaningful support in favor of keeping incredibly blase higher numbers buttons with the new cross class system, I have very little expectations that dps meters would be used in anyway that would be constructive. But hey, I have no faith in the community whereas you seem to.

[Shurrikhan]

My apologies, but seeing as people are already trying to kill any sense of meaningful support in favor of keeping incredibly blase higher numbers buttons with the new cross class system, I have very little expectations that dps meters would be used in anyway that would be constructive. But hey, I have no faith in the community whereas you seem to.

I'll trade you my faith in community for your faith in development, if you've still got it.

Seriously though, I don't think there's anything bad to come of making a game's playerbase more realistically informed and accountable. I will agree however that information accelerates change, and one (less attractive portion) of such is the narrowing of choices considered feasible. As conventions become more deeply established I will also agree that playerbases seem to somehow lose common sense or adaptability as soon as anything occurs outside of said conventions.

But, I'd argue that a playerbase that can better make use of information is also more capable or thinking for themselves, and adapting said thinking. Increased information may be a double-edged sword to some degree, but the its progression is by no means fatalistic.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I'll trade you my faith in community for your faith in development, if you've still got it.

Amusingly enough I still do. XD Despite only playing since 2.0, I still have faith and respect in both Yoshida and the developers. Of course, while I do agree that an accelerated change isn't necessarily a bad thing, the community's zealous obsession with MUH DEEPS, even if it's only by one point, has pretty much killed any faith I had. While more information can be good, of course, I'd argue that all it does is hasten entropy, and in fact kills any adaptability because the only perceived way to do things is the 'correct way', even if there's another more feasible alternative, or equally feasible. The example with WoW is one of the things I especially hate, because all it does is enforce hive mind mentality and squashes any kind of creative problem solving.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Amusingly enough I still do. XD Despite only playing since 2.0, I still have faith and respect in both Yoshida and the developers. Of course, while I do agree that an accelerated change isn't necessarily a bad thing, the community's zealous obsession with MUH DEEPS, even if it's only by one point, has pretty much killed any faith I had. While more information can be good, of course, I'd argue that all it does is hasten entropy, and in fact kills any adaptability because the only perceived way to do things is the 'correct way', even if there's another more feasible alternative, or equally feasible. The example with WoW is one of the things I especially hate, because all it does is enforce hive mind mentality and squashes any kind of creative problem solving.

This is as much the developer's fault as the community's though. Friends and I were discussing Warrior and how it's essentially become "Fell Cleave: The Job." Everyone puts so much emphasis on how many Fell Cleaves they'll pull off above anything else. Why? Because nothing required Warrior to mitigate. When I can Holmgang every tank buster and easily be healed or heal myself, what do I need Raw and Vengeance for? They just become Fell Cleave buttons. For all the issues surrounding Gordias and, to a lesser extent, Midas, you just couldn't get away with that. Hopefully, the devs follow through with a third difficulty or super fight that actually forces strong mitigation and healing. That is when the DPS meta takes a backseat.

[Hamada]

This is as much the developer's fault as the community's though. Friends and I were discussing Warrior and how it's essentially become "Fell Cleave: The Job." Everyone puts so much emphasis on how many Fell Cleaves they'll pull off above anything else. Why? Because nothing required Warrior to mitigate. When I can Holmgang every tank buster and easily be healed or heal myself, what do I need Raw and Vengeancefor? They just become Fell Cleave buttons. For all the issues surrounding Gordias and, to a lesser extent, Midas, you just couldn't get away with that. Hopefully, the devs follow through with a third difficulty or super fight that actually forces strong mitigation and healing. That is when the DPS meta takes a backseat.

Why in the heck should that only be limited to there? O_o people have a tendency just to do the bare minimum to get though things, how come there is not any teaching tools to get people to use all their tools sooner then end game level?

[KisaiTenshi]

nope:

How come you are ignoring people? Yeah healer dps is not required, just like it is not required for tanks to use more then flash, it is not required for DPS to AoE monsters, so on. I done experts and such where the highest dps is the healer, takes 30 mins, but DPS doing their job is not a requirement.

Because people on the forum are carrying on the same conversation in no less than three different threads on the general forum alone, and you are limited to how many times you can post per day, thus most posts end up being large walls of text to avoid "too many quotes" "too many links" "too many (whatever)" complaints the forum software insists on.

Some posts would even hit the post size limit, no not the "1000char" one, but the actual edit limit. The last post, THIS thread grew by 6 pages by the time I just threw up my arms and hit post.

nope:
People are not here saying DPS from a healer is a requirement, what people are saying is that you shouldn't be standing around doing nothing or overhealing for long periods of time, it is that simple.

The entire argument that healers must DPS, over the last 8 years comes from this myth that healers stand around and do nothing, and then trolls step in trying to prove that by posting screenshots out of context, or fabricating a situation just to try and prove heal-only healers are lazy, when all they've proven is they intentionally play that role poorly.

This idea seems to originate in people who come from other games where the healer role is literately rubbish, and the healing goes either under-used or people would rather just create all-DPS parties and spam pots for healing because there's no penalty to it. So they are suddenly annoyed that they can't play poorly and still finish content. I've played other games, either during beta or initial release and find the same thing happens over and over. You either play DPS, or you don't get to play any party content.

Does that sound familiar yet?

Why in the heck should that only be limited to there? O_o people have a tendency just to do the bare minimum to get though things, how come there is not any teaching tools to get people to use all their tools sooner then end game level?

Because JRPG's are all gear-grinds. So people want to min-max how much damage they do, forget playing the game well, so any tool that doesn't contribute to DPS is abandoned.

More casual players hate elitist "farmer" type players because they suck the fun and ability to learn out of the game. Either you play it their way, or you get kicked from parties.

The fact that the DF exists is a boon to "casual" type players because that means they don't have to deal with only "(SAVAGE CONTENT) iLEVEL XXX ONLY" type parties drowning out all other parties. I actually re-arranged the chat screen so that all spammable chat was put in another chat screen.