We're all DDs now >.>

[Lambdafish]

Nobody is saying NOT to DPS ever. The problem is that some segment of players believe that a non-DPS'ing healer is somehow lazy, when the only way that can be true is by having the Tank play perfectly, every time.

Is this true though? I'm a tank and I don't need to play perfectly in dungeons in order for the healer to easily DPS. Regen, rouse, aspected benefic are enough to keep me alive even without much mitigation so long as I don't pull too much. I think you need to be very careful with what you think the the pro-dps argument is, and what you think a "non-dps healer" is in our eyes, because you might present yourself as advocating for something that you aren't. A non-dpsing healer IS lazy, we aren't talking about actions so much as we are talking about mentality. They are the people in this thread, and many many other threads who say they won't DPS, no matter what, on principal.

Let me repeat, we ARE NOT advocating that you should still DPS if the tank is struggling and you need to use every GCD to heal, however that is an exception, and in no way a normal run.

The healer is at a disadvantage in all FATE content because their DPS is weak and slow for the big booms. There's been entire FATE's that 20 DPS players can burn down a boss before you even get to switch into or out of healer, and if you try to DPS as healer, unless you were there first, or there is a collectable solution you're not going to be able to kill things enough to count as a large contributor. That is one of those annoying issues prevalent to using FATE's for doing the Zodiac weapon. When that content is new, the FATE's often dead before you even get a chance to do anything.

Also not true, if you cast protect, then regen the entire party, the chances of you getting full credit are quite high, tanks on the other hand have to resort to DPS or fighting with the other tanks for high enmity.

Yoshi-P has made his intentions clear with the WHM... ...There is no time to "netflix" or read things on another screen without playing poorly by overhealing. For SCH, the pet is much smarter than "cast regen" and the SCH role is a hybrid DPS/Healer. Hence the DoT's are worth far more, and correctly timing shields for damage migitation is the name of the play style. A lot of this has to do with how fast mana burns down between WHM and SCH. A WHM will exhaust all their mana quickly by playing poorly, or by throwing out DPS that is inconsequential when a party-flattener is coming up.

WHM has regen, medica II, and powerful heals such as tetra and benediction which serve this purpose.

Like the strategy on trash is different for the strategy used for single-boss, and different for multi-boss/boss+with+adds as a healer. For a Tank and DPS it isn't. If there is >1 enemy, you should not have time to single-target DPS, at least your tank and one DPS is likely getting their face eaten if you "do nothing", and if you heal before the tank grabs enmity, you become all the adds targets. When there is a single boss, and you've learned it's pattern, it's much easier to get away with DPS on a healer because you know when you're going to have the opening for it.

thats why healers have AOE DPS in the form of holy, gravity, and shadowflare/bane. Of course saying "multitarget" is too general to pull any kind of situation from, so it is highly dependant on a case by case basis as to whether DPS is viable.

That said, clearly the game mechanics thus far do not encourage healing enough, let alone properly. The closer the content gets to face-roll territory, the more you get people demanding tanks and healers to DPS, when maybe they don't want to, or don't have the time/mana for it. Not everyone is going to know the content, and the standard fare from the Duty Finder is that on average half the people don't know the content and the other half don't know they can do X as a Y.

That is the point. If you changed the dialogue to "do pro-dps healers think that this should be the way the game is designed?" you might actually get some thought provoking discussion in your favour, however the discussion we are having is "what is the right way to play healer right now?" and regardless of whether you agree with it or not, not holding the mentality of DPSing during downtime is poor practice as a healer.

Things change over time, as I've stated with the "regen" issue. At the beginning of V2.0 tanks would just outright curse you out for using it, so my play style has been to avoid using regen unless the character has a debuff that can't be cleaned by esuna. Otherwise using it before the tank has taken any damage results in all the monsters heading straight for you, and tanks have stated they will "let the healer tank" if they do this. Apparently the "lazy healer" trope is a result of the healer blowing all their HoT's and then doing effectively nothing. Or in otherwords punishing the tank for your bad play style. I'm sure the good tanks recognize bad healers, and good healers recognize bad tanks because their roles when played correctly are easy, and when one or the other are playing poorly, it's twice as much work for the other.

I don't know what you are doing wrong but regen is one of your most powerful spells and should be used often.

[KisaiTenshi]

That is the point. If you changed the dialogue to "do pro-dps healers think that this should be the way the game is designed?" you might actually get some thought provoking discussion in your favour, however the discussion we are having is "what is the right way to play healer right now?" and regardless of whether you agree with it or not, not holding the mentality of DPSing during downtime is poor practice as a healer.

I don't know what you are doing wrong but regen is one of your most powerful spells and should be used often.

"Pro-DPS healer" advocates keep insinuating that those that aren't, are ALL lazy, should be kicked, etc. Hence the argument continues.

At no point in any pre-50 content have you ever needed to pre-cast regen on everyone instead of cure. All it does is generate enmity at twice the rate that using cure or cure II alone does, thus if if you are using regen on a target not taking damage, you make the tanks job harder. Maybe they don't notice, or maybe most tanks have adapted to bad healer's, who knows.

From my perspective with the Duty finder, all the regular content, you can not expect a perfect party, ever. If you try to play the hard/extreme/old-raid content, you still get people who insist that you play everything perfectly and the second a mistake is made, abandon instance.

The duty finder is not designed for healers to mandatory DPS. As much as "pro-dps healer" people want people to believe otherwise even in raids. If content was designed for this, they would make the ilevels different for tanks, healers and DPS. Instead the content assumes you've got the minimum gear required, and thus every player can put out a fixed amount of minimum damage, and the minimum damage put out by the DPS at the lowest ilevel is enough to finish the instance alone. If the game had been designed for more intense healing, they would lower the ilevel required for healers to enter.

[Lambdafish]

"Pro-DPS healer" advocates keep insinuating that those that don't even try, are ALL lazy, should be kicked, etc. Hence the argument continues.

fixed it for you

At no point in any pre-50 content have you ever needed to pre-cast regen on everyone instead of cure. All it does is generate enmity at twice the rate that using cure or cure II alone does, thus if if you are using regen on a target not taking damage, you make the tanks job harder. Maybe they don't notice, or maybe most tanks have adapted to bad healer's, who knows.

I've played both healers and tanks and I have never had an issue with regen so long as you wait for the tank to build a bit of enmity first. I think you are overestimating the enmity issues relating to regen. If you are putting on before the pull then yeah, you will have issues, but if you wait for the tank to do one rotation, then you can regen to your hearts content.

From my perspective with the Duty finder, all the regular content, you can not expect a perfect party, ever. If you try to play the hard/extreme/old-raid content, you still get people who insist that you play everything perfectly and the second a mistake is made, abandon instance.

As I, and many others have said, you do not need a perfect party to find yourself with large gaps in your healing (so long as you are using regen), not even close.

The duty finder is not designed for healers to mandatory DPS. As much as "pro-dps healer" people want people to believe otherwise even in raids. If content was designed for this, they would make the ilevels different for tanks, healers and DPS. Instead the content assumes you've got the minimum gear required, and thus every player can put out a fixed amount of minimum damage. If the game had been designed for more intense healing, they would lower the ilevel required for healers to enter.

Mandatory DPS no, but so much downtime that the choice is DPS or idle, I think I know what everyone would like you to do. As I have to repeat for the billionth time, nobody is saying that DPS is the thing that is important, NOT IDLING AND ALWAYS MAKING SURE YOU ARE CASTING IS WHAT WE WANT FROM YOU, WHICH MEANS DPSING WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO (said in all caps/bolded/underlined so you can't possibly miss it).

Learn to regen and you might start to see what we are talking about.