Tank Role actions

[winsock]

This is ridiculously silly for Paladins. On patch day Paladins will have lost:

Protect
Stoneskin
Raise (Palace of the Dead)
Bloodbath
Foresight
Mercy Stroke
Pacification (removed Shield Swipe)
Silence (removed from Spirits Within)
Rampart
Provoke
Awareness
Convalescence

Then we have to spend 5/5 Tank Role actions if we want to get our original last five abilities returned. We lose all of that to gain nothing essentially.

To be fair, alot of this is just bloat or a very, very minor loss. We also don't know what the full kit will look like. They don't need to make up for much

[bswpayton]

Rampart being on the crossclass skills is honestly.

Not exactly I just look at things as a whole I tank everything in this gAme so even for instance in copper bell mines if ur warrior and want to finish it in fifteen mins with big pulls. Let's assume u don't take rampart or conv. As it stands now u have zero df cool downs at ur disposal or every time u get a lowbie dungeon for leveling or mentor roulette u have to rearrange ur abilities witch isn't exactly fun to me. and rampart to me doesn't trumpt blood bath, foresight, ir, and second wind in my opinion. Rampart would only be better if defiance worked like shield oath and grit

[SpookyGhost]

Rampart would only be better if defiance worked like shield oath and grit

Rampart would be worse if Defiance worked like ShO/Grit. ShO/Grit + Rampart is 36% damage reduction, Defiance + Rampart is (functionally) 40% since there's no stacking of %-based defensive CDs. Not having Bloodbath sucks, but it just means we have to be healed sooner now which isn't that big of a deal and only realistically applies to dungeons. I'd rather have Bloodbath than not have it, but w/e we were bound to get nerfed anyway. I'm more concerned about the fact that we bring nothing unique to the party since we lost Path's debuff and NIN/SAM can use Eye without a DPS loss. I guess we have the best burst damage? And maybe best personal damage overall? Maybe? Idk, I guess we'll see when the expansion drops.

[Launched]

I'm more concerned about the fact that we bring nothing unique to the party since we lost Path's debuff and NIN/SAM can use Eye without a DPS loss. I guess we have the best burst damage? And maybe best personal damage overall? Maybe? Idk, I guess we'll see when the expansion drops.

With the removal of Path and change to Reprisal I think SE is trying to move away from debuffs with high uptime. I'm expecting to see Delirium and Halone lose their debuffs too and I'd be really suprised if WAR didn't get at least one raidwide cooldown, maybe Thrill of War from PVP since Passage of Arms is basically Tetsudo.

[bswpayton]

Rampart would be worse if Defiance worked like ShO/Grit. ShO/Grit + Rampart is 36% damage reduction, Defiance + Rampart is (functionally) 40% since there's no stacking of %-based defensive CDs. Not having Bloodbath sucks, but it just means we have to be healed sooner now which isn't that big of a deal and only realistically applies to

Dont forget second wind another self heal is gone as well, and like I said drk really looks even worse than both tanks which sucks because they have to add alot more to them to even get on the same level as they where before as well as the other two tanks in terms of df cool downs. I dont care what anyone says I had bloodbath(even if it only did as much self healing and one cure) and foresight on my drk as I just simply dont have as much faith in random healers as everyone else seems to.

So they lose those two, now they have to pick conv and rampart just to regain what was lost in cross class, and they lost 100 potency from low blow, and lost the 210 potency from rephrasel , thats a lost in 310 potency all together, also drk mind only helps for magic damage while bulwark works on both physical and magic now. I just dont like what they did at all its prob showing in my post, it would of been much easier to just simply unlock cross class skills to all jobs instead of what we are currently getting now, losing damage and losing cool downs.

So all together what im seeing is pali losing stone skin a loss, pali losing foresight , bloodbath, and mercy stroke, to replace it with skill that where already theirs, conv, rampart, awarness, and provoke also losing shield swipe.

Drk losses, bloodbath , foresight, mercy stroke, 310 potency from losing damage on lowblow and rephrasal, and if dark mind doesnt change having a df cool down that only mitigates magic damage while the others can do both possibly losing int down.

Warrior loses, ir, foresight, second wind, and this bothers me and Ive seen many other warriors use flash as well its a preference thing, looks like they lose fracture as well, mercy stroke, and bloodbath, and 20 percent from beserk oh and brutal swing not sure the potency loss, and the ability to freely stance dance and always have the option to pic fell cleave or inner beast.

and the main options will be rampart two of the tanks already had, conv, awareness, a one second silence one second really, a five second stun with no damage, an aoe provoke , I see alot of losses here compared to gains

[MiniPrinny]

-snip-

All silences are 1 second long. If you don't like that, the Mogstation is over there.

On topic: As a Dark Knight, these changes to the role system seem... curious. I'm wondering if Rampart is supposed to be more of a "I didn't see the buster coming" ability now, rather than the bread and butter for PLD and DRK. The changes we saw of Sheltron (consuming 50 "oath") implies that Sheltron may be similar in power now to Inner Beast (consumes 50 "inner beast"), likewise, it is safe to assume Dark Knights got a version of Sheltron or Inner Beast as well that interacts with Blackblood.

As for Low Blow and Reprisal, the loss in potency will likely be recovered elsewhere. Awareness and Convalescence I have always viewed as sort of "these are nice, but low tier" abilities, in fact, I'm kind of irritated Awareness is still around. Interject is just nice to have.

Shirk, going by icon and name alone, is most likely some form of Shadewalker, which is a very useful ability for tanks to get. Likewise, Anticipation may be a role-wide method of dealing with single, hard-hitting magic attacks.

Now, the big two: Provoke and Ultimatum. Provoke will likely be "mandatory" for most raid fights, but being a more defensive and flexible tank might be preferred in dungeons if you feel comfortable with your enmity generation. Ultimatum I see little use for. It's a cute ability, but it's probably the weakest role action in the bunch. The small radius combined with the long cooldown means its only good if you're very quick at reacting, but even then, it's still a provoke, which means you need to have an AoE enmity skill lined up with it. Honestly, I rather see something else here, Ultimatum feels like a crutch for players that need two crutches.

[Lyth]

I think this depends on whether the enmity system stays the same as it is now. If Provoke and Ultimatum give you more than enmity + 1, or if the enmity threshold for taking back aggro is higher than 100%, then you could see Ultimatum used as a snap enmity grab as well. You could then switch over more quickly to AoE spellcasting on PLD, for example, without needing to Flash, because you'd know that the mobs would be locked on you until the dps surpassed your enmity by a set threshold.

From another perspective, if Shirk is an enmity transfer tool (i.e. shirking your responsibilities) as some people are speculating, then you could theoretically pass aggro between two tanks through Shirk alone, without needing Provoke. But if you have to pass a threshold to regain enmity, then they both fill different niches.

Anticipation actually looks a lot like Dark Dance, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a parry rate skill. Awareness might not even be the same ability, or it may have other effects added to it. For example, it could be a combination of Critical Hit immunity and the Tempered Will effects.

We don't have tooltips for Rampart, Provoke, Anticipation, Awareness, and Shirk. We can make some assumptions, based on the names, but we can't take anything for granted, even if they share the same name and icon as actions currently in the game.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I'm kind of irritated Awareness is still around.

It will be nice if there is more content with auto-crit phases like the add phase in Zurvan and at the start of Diablos Hollow. Plenty of Warriors and Dark Knights complained about leveling Paladin to 22 for Provoke, imagine the complaining if Awareness (34) had been more mandatory.

Now, the big two: Provoke and Ultimatum. Provoke will likely be "mandatory" for most raid fights, but being a more defensive and flexible tank might be preferred in dungeons if you feel comfortable with your enmity generation. Ultimatum I see little use for. It's a cute ability, but it's probably the weakest role action in the bunch. The small radius combined with the long cooldown means its only good if you're very quick at reacting, but even then, it's still a provoke, which means you need to have an AoE enmity skill lined up with it. Honestly, I rather see something else here, Ultimatum feels like a crutch for players that need two crutches.

Ultimatum is multi-target so if a group of adds ever spawns with pregenerated enmity having it will be better than having Provoke.

The battle design team has been limited by what is available currently in the various job's tool kits. A fair number of the new cross-role skills may have been added in order to give the designers more design space for future fights.

[MiniPrinny]

-snipity!-

I could see them shoehorning in a use for Ultimatum like that, but as an ability on its own, Ultimatum is just... yeah... It's cute and that's about it. It'll be a puzzle piece in some raid fight, I'm sure.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I could see them shoehorning in a use for Ultimatum like that, but as an ability on its own, Ultimatum is just... yeah... It's cute and that's about it. It'll be a puzzle piece in some raid fight, I'm sure.

Consider this: How often do you need Provoke's range? There have been only a few fights where the 25y range would be more advantageous than a 5y range.

It is going to be up to player preference most of the time on which one is better.