Thank you for (job changes): Thank them!

[Duelle]

Its likely for RDM they focused more on the magic side simply because it was likely to be more visually readable and entertaining. So id like to think its quite possible their melee is more robust than we initially thought, its just... Would it really look as awesome as spam casting spells on a somewhat low rez video?

Which would leave the question of mechanics. The skill spread treats melee abilities as a mana dump. On top of that, using melee skills while Chainspell is up consumes the buff, so you can't even weave melee skills with spells the way an actual sword & spell hybrid would.

Combine this with the fact that you're using spells to build up black/white mana and the overt emphasis on casting from range. This means you're spending the bulk of your time spamming spells from range to build mana, then dash in for a little bit to dump it using sword skills, then jumping back out. That's assuming not-Flare and and its white mana equivalent don't deal more damage.

As a melee weapon Rapiers arent exactly the most versatile in use, and much of what their good for dislike heavy handed movements.

This depends on the school of fencing. While some focus entirely on thrusts, others utilize cuts. Even acknowledging that cuts aren't as effective on their own, there's nothing stopping a RDM from quickly covering their blade in flame or lightning before delivering a cut and either comboing that into a thrust attack or casting a quick offensive spell as a follow up. If we want to get really fancy and unrealistic, acrobatics can also be thrown in (see: the Maria boss fight from Nioh's DLC).

I'll grant you that we don't have the full list of 28 skills plus the lv61-70 skills. I will, however, say that SE has had plenty of opportunity to prove me wrong, and so far, they haven't.

[OcieKo]

Which would leave the question of mechanics. The skill spread treats melee abilities as a mana dump. On top of that, using melee skills while Chainspell is up consumes the buff, so you can't even weave melee skills with spells the way an actual sword & spell hybrid would.

Combine this with the fact that you're using spells to build up black/white mana and the overt emphasis on casting from range. This means you're spending the bulk of your time spamming spells from range to build mana, then dash in for a little bit to dump it using sword skills, then jumping back out. That's assuming not-Flare and and its white mana equivalent don't deal more damage.
This depends on the school of fencing. While some focus entirely on thrusts, others utilize cuts. Even acknowledging that cuts aren't as effective on their own, there's nothing stopping a RDM from quickly covering their blade in flame or lightning before delivering a cut and either comboing that into a thrust attack or casting a quick offensive spell as a follow up. If we want to get really fancy and unrealistic, acrobatics can also be thrown in (see: the Maria boss fight from Nioh's DLC).

I'll grant you that we don't have the full list of 28 skills plus the lv61-70 skills. I will, however, say that SE has had plenty of opportunity to prove me wrong, and so far, they haven't.

Its mostly a matter if all the sword skills are under the Black/White mana costs, or are their some that are simply TP cost. So much of your concern about that is up in the air still, more of wait for more info issue.

While yes the variety of moves that can be done with a rapier are plentiful, the amount of the rapier that can be practically used against any other weapon is quite limited. Most attacks will be concentrated on the last 2-4 inches of the blade, as any further in with a non piercing move would increase the risk of the blade snapping, thus creating a sort of death by paper cuts feeling to its slashing maneuvers. Its defense generall consistes of shallow angle skillful parries, and most sword based defense would be focused on the 2-4 inches closes to the crossguard. Assuming a blade of 15-26" the middle 7-18 inches is pretty much a weakspot that was accepted so they blade could be given speed and precision abilities.

Now between the recent video and older descriptive info I get the impression your gunna be spending a fairly equal amount of time up close and far away. I suspect they may have a few instant casts spells for use to be weaved with your sword along the lines of scathe/ruin 2 or else the note about chainspell only affecting spells with a cast time would be redundant. Also it is possible some of their sword skills have cast times thus why chainspell can be consumed with them. Since it seems cast times on melee will also be a thing with SAM. But I will be keeping watch on this matter as well.

[Duelle]

Its mostly a matter if all the sword skills are under the Black/White mana costs, or are their some that are simply TP cost. So much of your concern about that is up in the air still, more of wait for more info issue.

It's as clear as day that you have to be above certain mana levels to "enhance" sword skills. The three that were shown consumed 30, 25 and 25 of each mana type. You're likely able to use them on their own, but they won't be enhanced. And I can bet dollars to donuts the enhancement has to do with either MP recovery or causing the sword skills to deal their intended damage (meaning you won't be encouraged to use them on their own).

That being said, if we wanted to make things a little more even, mana generation would have to be considerably higher per spell. Without using the cooldown to double current mana accumulated, you're still sitting in the back line spamming spells to generate mana that is consumed in 3 GCDs. As I said earlier, you're spending a lot of time away from the mob and a short time in actual melee range.

Now between the recent video and older descriptive info I get the impression your gunna be spending a fairly equal amount of time up close and far away. I suspect they may have a few instant casts spells for use to be weaved with your sword along the lines of scathe/ruin 2 or else the note about chainspell only affecting spells with a cast time would be redundant.

This would have a leg to stand on if Chainspell was a secondary or minor system to RDM, because you could then work around it. Sword skills proccing Chainspell would also work, which is not the case and the devs have made no effort to indicate that.

As a DPS, your job is to do as much damage as possible, and as currently presented the way to do so as RDM is to cast from range and dump mana on sword skills for the suspected proc to cast a white or black-flavored nuke. Which takes us back to my initial issue with what has been done: instead of a sword & spell hybrid, we got a black mage with a sword.

Also it is possible some of their sword skills have cast times thus why chainspell can be consumed with them. Since it seems cast times on melee will also be a thing with SAM. But I will be keeping watch on this matter as well.

Actually, the reason the effect is lost is because the game treats it like combo breaking. Or using an instant spell when Swiftcast is up. If Chainspell is up, you have to cast a spell, and performing any other offensive action cancels the effect.

[OcieKo]

Snip

For starters can you link to the video/screenshots your basing your OGCD/Short Term Buffs/Procs functionality on? I'm sourcing mostly on the live letter 35/36 content reveals where the actual skill bars werent shown in use for most of the jobs. Just the job gauges, which as far as I can understand only show secondary resources.

**Edited to be up here for clarity**
Also since it seems to be something that is unclear on the forums, Primary Resource = MP and TP thats it, anything related to a buff or job unique build-up/drain can (and I'm doing this) be called a secondary resource, which from current knowledge easy visual display of SECONDARY resources is the primary purpose of the new job gauges. Thus Black Mana, White Mana, and Chain Spell procs are being referred to as a secondary resources, even tho yes, they are core to how the job plays. Since most seem to understand WOW in general on a Rogue Energy is a Primary Resource, Combo Points is a Secondary Resource. In this game primary resources are the shared MP/TP there its Mana, Focus, Rage, Energy, and Runic Power I think thats all of them unless Monk has another aside from Chi stacks, its a bit trickier than FFXIV since theres little continuity between non caster type classes/roles.

While what your saying so far compared to what weve seen is entirely possible, I cannot deny that in its enirety. But on the other hand, I don't remember seeing the standard MP/TP bars during the RDM segment just the job gauge black/white mana bars. At this point it's probably safe to say most of those spells will cost general MP, how is this consistently recovered. Out of currently used methods of MP recovery we have: ACN bulk MP on CD with an option to use a secondary resource to get more; BLM MP recovery stance/rotation phase; WHM/AST style gradual recovery cooldown; PLD/DRK style melee combo to return MP. I'd say WHM/AST style is probably out, if it was BLM or ACN style it probably wouldve been pointed out on the job guage. So that leaves PLD/DRK or a new style. At this point I cant rule out RDM possibly having a melee style 1-2-3 combo for regular MP regeneration. Not saying this is the case, just that its not entirely ruled out. The current melee usage weve seen so far could have more in common with Warrior Inner Beast/Fel Cleave/Steel Cyclone/(DPS AOE I always forget the name of), where spells replace the combos for secondary resource generation.

Keep in mind EVERY JOB has to be able to function as low as level 5 in this game, even if that level is not actually possible, due to Fate lvl syncing (i think lvl 5 is about the lowest, might be anywhere from 4-8 tho). Most of what we've seen on RDM will not be possible at the extreme lower levels. So they may have a really boring Rapier stab as their basic damage ability. Big thing is, from what I've seen from SE themselves information about the toolkit in general for not only RDM but SAM as well is a bit too limited to have a final say on yet. Heck with the major current job changes it may be a bit tricky for all of em.

Also, maybe its just myself and a small subset of others who believe this, but I think the job action trailers were more to show off flashy spell effects than show good gameplay, even when he fought against mobs with the full UI on screen it wasn't really inidicative of what's to come for even BLM. I'd be hard pressed to believe even half of RDM/SAMs core bread and butter rotation skills have been seen. Just the things that would make us lean forward and drool a bit... Pally wing shield...

Since I keep going back to make sure I hit the big points... Chainspell is a secondary system, its not TP or MP, it probably has more in common with MNKs Opo-Opo, Raptor, Coeurl stances, while core to play of the job its not to the entire game. Also its likely in as a super low level Trait, just its 100% proc chance may throw some off.