Combo Consolidation: How long before we see it in PVE?

[Driavna]

Some people here are oversimplifying this, also, is not that hard to understand. Let's use DK as an example:

1) Hard Slash-> Spinning Slash-> Power Slash = Key 1

2) Syphon Strike-> Delirium = Key 2

3) Souleater = Key 3

Do I want to do power slash combo? = Key 1 three times

Delirium Combo? = 1-2-2

Souletear combo? = 1-2-3

With this, I just remove 3 unnecessary keys (Spinning Slash, Power Slash and Delirium). That free three slots for future skills and at some point SE will need to do it.

For Monks (however, this change require that every encounter allows for rear and flank attacks) they can compress certain skills in one and use conditionals to trigger one effect or the other. Let's use Dragonkick as an example: if hit from target's flank during Opo-Opo form reduce INT and blunt resistance. If hit from target's rear during Opo-Opo form is a critical strike.

You can do this with True Strike-Twin Snakes and Snap Punch-Demolish.

[Arkenne]

I would welcome ways to simplify the controllers. A friend of mine likes to play DRG and is very good at it, but sadly their hands hurts every time and have to step back to a less finger-tangling job.

I'm ok with either case, but its true I've seen games with just as complex and varied play styles with way less buttons to press.

[Mycow8me]

There's no reason to be against this since it could just be an optional change for controller users who this could greatly help. It doesn't need to be forced on everyone who enjoys the 1-2-3 since its coding already exists. All they need is a checkbox for "Auto combo". In the case of combo alterations, the first obtainable completion skill for the combo would be the "auto" and the new alternative skill will be one you have to press yourself (like storms path and storms eye for example). I can't see why something like that would be difficult to code but I'm not a coder so who knows.

[Atmora]

Lets not kid ourselves people, its not the core action rotation that separates the casuals from the hardcores its buff management and encounter knowledge.

That's more what separates an 80-94th percentile player from someone actually capable of performing a fight semi optimally. If you actually ask bad players what they should be doing they'll oftentimes give you a very misguided and poor version of an actual rotation and if you dig deeper yet you'll find that they aren't even executing that misguided rotation correctly, they're hitting the wrong OGCDs, using the the wrong abilities, starting the wrong combos, among other things. I've looked through their action casts in order and seen a bard cast wind bite, venom bite into straight shot into venom bite with no OGCDs in between in Zurvan with no bonus. Players really do have a hard time hitting these buttons in the correct order and contrary to popular belief in this thread hitting buttons in the right order IS a skill in video games.

[OcieKo]

That's more what separates an 80-94th percentile player from someone actually capable of performing a fight semi optimally. If you actually ask bad players what they should be doing they'll oftentimes give you a very misguided and poor version of an actual rotation and if you dig deeper yet you'll find that they aren't even executing that misguided rotation correctly, they're hitting the wrong OGCDs, using the the wrong abilities, starting the wrong combos, among other things. I've looked through their action casts in order and seen a bard cast wind bite, venom bite into straight shot into venom bite with no OGCDs in between in Zurvan with no bonus. Players really do have a hard time hitting these buttons in the correct order and contrary to popular belief in this thread hitting buttons in the right order IS a skill in video games.

I really dont think their the majority. My stepdad plays like that, my eyes bleed when i see an aoe skill used on a single target often. Id say more would be like BLMs not use F/B IV non stop, WARs on dps duty atm not using Slash debuff, not dmg reduc also, monks skipping over the blunt debuff, or ninjas skipping slash debuff when theres no OT WAR. But otherwise pretty much running a solid rotation. That combined with a lesser use of the OGCD buffs. The people who just do like the bard example you have are probably more in the polar opposite group of the HC raiders, the bottom 5-10 percent. The OGCD/Full rotation would more separate the HC from the middle 40-50 percent of the populace who are just fine on last patches EX Trials, and function passably on the current EX Roulette/8man raid/reg & hm level trials after the initial 2-3 week wtf is going on dies down.

[OcieKo]

Some people here are oversimplifying this, also, is not that hard to understand. Let's use DK as an example:

1) Hard Slash-> Spinning Slash-> Power Slash = Key 1

2) Syphon Strike-> Delirium = Key 2

3) Souleater = Key 3

Do I want to do power slash combo? = Key 1 three times

Delirium Combo? = 1-2-2

Souletear combo? = 1-2-3

With this, I just remove 3 unnecessary keys (Spinning Slash, Power Slash and Delirium). That free three slots for future skills and at some point SE will need to do it.

For Monks (however, this change require that every encounter allows for rear and flank attacks) they can compress certain skills in one and use conditionals to trigger one effect or the other. Let's use Dragonkick as an example: if hit from target's flank during Opo-Opo form reduce INT and blunt resistance. If hit from target's rear during Opo-Opo form is a critical strike.

You can do this with True Strike-Twin Snakes and Snap Punch-Demolish.

The DRK part is whats ok with it, just let any of the buttons advance the combo along the right line. Monk is the trick tho, what your saying is starting to push into the skill removal territory that is unsettling people here. Where as like ninja, sure you can have dancing edge/aeolian edge/armor crush all advance parts 1-2 the same with each, and shadow fang do part 1 on that button, but being behind for Aeolian or to the side for armor crush for the bonus is still on the player.

The easy fix would be to make MNK rotations more solid like the rest, but that would fundamentally change the class. Despite not liking Monk because of that fact, I still would stand against a change of this sort happening. The alternative would to be making a base 1-2-3 rotation all buttons use, but this would basically change nothing. The only feasible way I can think of atm, would to pseudo create as many of their skills into 1-2-3 conbos for the buttons, just allow them to be broken unlike the 1-2-3 combos from other jobs. I.E. On WAR Maim would disable Butcher's Block line from continuing. On monk this wouldnt matter, combo progression would work off of current stance as opposed to last skill used. So i guess Bootshine > Twin Vipers > One Ilm on one button and Dragon Kick > (sorry forgot the other monk 2nd form single target skill) > DoT (Forgot name also, the combo one and the use whenever i never remember which is which) and just allow to use them however, making monk combos pretty much 1-2 chains i.e. 111 112 122 222 221 211 variations as needed. Tho for this to work totally, monks would need a 2nd stance AOE.

[MomoOG]

Sorry but you are silly if you think 1-1-1 is the same as 1-2-3. The fact that there are 3 buttons involved versus 1 button is exactly what makes it different. With 1-1-1 there is literally only 1 button to press and so impossible to make a mistake. With 1-2-3 there are 3 buttons to press which require a specific sequence and one can miss up the sequence (hitting 1-1-3, 1-3-3, 1-2-2 and so forth) resulting a substantial hit to the rotation and dps (depending on class and rotation mechanics). Now in a vacuum 1-2-3 might not seem overtly complex to screw up but in the setting of having to manage multiple of these sequences, plus self buffs, OGC abilities, class specific mechanics and boss fight mechanics there definitely results in much higher chance of screwing up the sequence. If not screwing up the rotation at least increase chance of hesitation of what to press next and creates delays in the rotation again leading to potential loss.

This is a tab targeting MMO. You need these minor complexities that when added together create some form of skill floor and skill ceiling.

[OcieKo]

Sorry but you are silly if you think 1-1-1 is the same as 1-2-3. The fact that there are 3 buttons involved versus 1 button is exactly what makes it different. With 1-1-1 there is literally only 1 button to press and so impossible to make a mistake. With 1-2-3 there are 3 buttons to press which require a specific sequence and one can miss up the sequence (hitting 1-1-3, 1-3-3, 1-2-2 and so forth) resulting a substantial hit to the rotation and dps (depending on class and rotation mechanics). Now in a vacuum 1-2-3 might not seem overtly complex to screw up but in the setting of having to manage multiple of these sequences, plus self buffs, OGC abilities, class specific mechanics and boss fight mechanics there definitely results in much higher chance of screwing up the sequence. If not screwing up the rotation at least increase chance of hesitation of what to press next and creates delays in the rotation again leading to potential loss.

This is a tab targeting MMO. You need these minor complexities that when added together create some form of skill floor and skill ceiling.

Im trying not to laugh at how you started your arguement.

Self buffs, OGCDs, Class Mechanics, Boss Mechanics... None of these are affected by this possibly making it to PVE. And can reasonably be called the core points to improving personal play alongside knowin class/job group synergy.
The ability to not mess up which button you press while you manage a rediculous number of them... Is not. That falls more under physical errors rather than the mental/visual/aural awareness mistakes. Not having to press 1-2-7 to use Dancing Edge on NIN as opposed to pressing 1-1-7, 1-5-7, 5-1-7, 5-5-7, or 7-7-7 is not going to do much to me its about the same as playing MNK or using Mudras, at some point I still have to hit the right button at the right time. For reference on my NIN bar 1-2-3 is Aeolian Edge combo, in this system itd be all on 1, 5 is Armor Crush which would normally be 1-2-5, and 7 is Dancing Edge which is normally 1-2-7. If I fail to hit 5 3rd every 70sec as a ninja even in a rotating combo button system, im still gunna fail to maintain it. That wont change. On the other hand I might be able to put a few mire common use skills in more accesinle spots, like my mudras could be 2-3-4-0 instead of Shift-1, Shift-2, Shift-3, and 0. That skill of knowing what to use when, is still on you. Just the pointless hotbar bulk of a skill that has to be hit every 8 sec or so just to get to you really need hit is out of the way. This will affect how much of your hotbar that has to be used frequently is accesible far more of the skill of doing whats neccessary at the right time. Either way for now its PVP only, unless it proves useful there it may never even come to PVE.

Personally I like the system, and im used to it from action MMOs like AOC, B&S, Tera, and Skyforge. Hell unlike this game I'm doing just fine in Skyforge playing pure controller. That's not to say its controlls are better for it, far from it, its pretty much the same but the vastly smaller amount of skills makes it noticable, and habit of playing traditional MMOs KB&M from my EQ/WOW days. And yes for clarity, I do think the console menu and controls systems are very well built in FFXIV, I just prefer KB&M even tho I play on PS4.

Another point to pick out tho, while yes this game is tab target, the character skill system is far more like an action MMO with direct combos. Auto-attack is not exactly a huge focus of this games DPS paradigm, I dont think any job in the game currently weaves skills in-between auto-attacks so as to not cancel them. Auto-attack is basically a crappy dot that hits a designated target within a small PBAOE radius.

[Shurrikhan]

EDIT: <For Monks>

Snip.

The only real issue Monk would face with dynamic slots is Perfect Balance. Otherwise you could simply have:
1 Bootshine
2 Dragon Kick
3 Arm of the Destroyer

1 True Strike
2 Twin Snakes
3 One-Ilm Punch

1 Snap Punch
2 Demolish
3 Rockbreaker

The issue then becomes how you again have all 9 skills near-simultaneously available during PB. Assuming decent enough an effective connection, this might be handled by bringing Form Shift into Monk/Pugilist skills earlier, and simply making it a non-animation oGCD during Perfect Balance, allowing for rapid cycling. With Form Shift as button 4 and Touch of Death as 5, starting per usual from Coeurl, a typical HW opener would then be something like:

Coeurl --- | -O- | -R- | Coeurl | -O- | -R- | Coeurl | Opo-opo | Raptor | Coeurl
----[3]---- | [4] | [4] | --[1]-- | [4] | [4]- | --[1]-- | ---[2]--- | --[2]-- | ---[5]---
Demolish | -FS | FS- | -Snap- | -FS | FS- | -Snap- | -Dragon | -Twin- | Touch of Death

Or put simply: 2 - 4 - 4 1 4 - 4 - 2 - 2

There, now even with PB remaining a prevalent part of Monk gameplay, you still need only consume 3 slots for 9 skills.

(Or, alternatively, you could give reason and ability to use the 9 skills out of their presumed cycle, and you'd have reason to spend 9 slots on them (in my case, 1,2,3, Shift-1-2-3, Caps (rebound to r. Alt)-1,2,3).)

Sorry but you are silly if you think 1-1-1 is the same as 1-2-3. The fact that there are 3 buttons involved versus 1 button is exactly what makes it different. With 1-1-1 there is literally only 1 button to press and so impossible to make a mistake. With 1-2-3 there are 3 buttons to press which require a specific sequence and one can miss up the sequence (hitting 1-1-3, 1-3-3, 1-2-2 and so forth) resulting a substantial hit to the rotation and dps (depending on class and rotation mechanics). Now in a vacuum 1-2-3 might not seem overtly complex to screw up but in the setting of having to manage multiple of these sequences, plus self buffs, OGC abilities, class specific mechanics and boss fight mechanics there definitely results in much higher chance of screwing up the sequence. If not screwing up the rotation at least increase chance of hesitation of what to press next and creates delays in the rotation again leading to potential loss.

By saving those 6 slots, you could, say, fit Steel Peak, Howling Fist, and Elixir Field as your Shift-1, -2, and -3, and Internal Release, Blood for Blood, and Perfect Balance as your Caps-1, -2, and -3. With Shoulder Rush as a Shift-4, Chakra as Caps-4, Fracture as a Shift-5, and Purification as Caps-5, your whole core rotation would fit into the 1-5 area. (Heck, you've still got 5 more skills you could slap into there via Ctrl, if your hands aren't small.

This is a tab targeting MMO. You need these minor complexities that when added together create some form of skill floor and skill ceiling.

Would movement be more interesting if you had to hit E to go right instead of D every 5 seconds, cycling back and forth? There'd be TWO buttons for that command then! COMPLEXITY!

I could see this being useful for someone with a disability, but honestly seems boring otherwise. Monk's fun to me partially because of the rotation.

Also, what happens if you need to move for an AoE or mechanic? How does that work? (sorry if I sound harsh, just wondering)

With a by-final key setup, as in PvP, it'd simply wait until you got back in range to finish it (on your next key press if the queue has timed out), and you could always cancel the combo by using a ranged ability.

With a dynamic key setup, as above, there is zero difference. You're still controlling only one action at a time, and can chain in any way you want.

Rather than using, in my case, 1, Shift-1, or Caps-1 for my various Opo-opo skills, and then regular, Shift, and Caps again for 2 and 3 for Raptor and Coeurl, respectively, and 4 for Form Shift and 5 for Touch of Death, you'd simply use 1, 2, or 3 for every stance, leaving the modified versions of your main keys available for other things, like your CDs. In exchange, however (at least in my suggestion), during Perfect Balance you'd have to spam button 4 (an instant, no-lock, no-animation, client-side Form Shift - buffed by PB) a bit to swap out your buttons according to stance to access the other stance's skills (near-)simultaneously again.

I think that in 5.0 this should be how new skills are implemented rather than as new skills outright. I'm also in the camp of finding it a bit weird to consolidate the basic combo (not against, just not particularly fond of the idea in practice), but I can definately see skill changing depending on circumstance. An example would be on SMN, if they ever went crazy and added another trance, the button could replace the dreadwyrm trance button, or on the tanks the button could be replaced depending on which stance they are in (a really good example would be fell cleave)

I feel about the same way. I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea of by-final key setups in PvP (heck, even in PvP, a bit) even though every time I imagine them in practice they seem not to limit anything, and are in no way clunky. Dynamic keys, however, while they'd suggest revision to certain combos to give us a more equal number of options per combo tier (e.g. open DoT / combo opener --> option A / option B --> A1 / A2 | B1 / B2 | so that two are always used), seem both more capable of making room and somehow feel more intuitive to me (even though, again, they would lock out certain options more so than the more numerous by-final keys).

[OcieKo]

EDIT: <For Monks>


The only real issue Monk would face with dynamic slots is Perfect Balance. Otherwise you could simply have:
1 Bootshine
2 Dragon Kick
3 Arm of the Destroyer

1 True Strike
2 Twin Snakes
3 One-Ilm Punch

1 Snap Punch
2 Demolish
3 Rockbreaker

The issue then becomes how you again have all 9 skills near-simultaneously available during PB. Assuming decent enough an effective connection, this might be handled by bringing Form Shift into Monk/Pugilist skills earlier, and simply making it a non-animation oGCD during Perfect Balance, allowing for rapid cycling. With Form Shift as button 4 and Touch of Death as 5, starting per usual from Coeurl (c) [Raptor (r), Opo-opo (o); o>r>c です], a typical HW opener would then be something like:

c2, (o4, r4), c1, (o4, r4), c1, o2, r2, 5
Demolish, FSx2, Snap, FSx2, Snap, Dragon, Twin, Touch

There, now even with PB remaining a prevalent part of Monk gameplay, you still need only consume 3 slots for 9 skills.

(Or, alternatively, you could give reason and ability to use the 9 skills out of their presumed cycle, and you'd have reason to spend 9 slots on them (in my case, 1,2,3, Shift-1-2-3, Caps (rebound to r. Alt)-1,2,3).)



Would movement be more interesting if you had to hit E to go right instead of D every 5 seconds, cycling back and forth? There'd be TWO buttons for that command then! COMPLEXITY!

Yep Monk is the issue along side Perfect Balance. That skill is very easily the "monk"ey wrench of the plan (bad puns, but i had to sorry). The most feasible plan I had is the same as yours, just with less progress blocks than most jobs. But with rotations in Perfect Balance can break in so many ways, locked on current stance, auto force to stance 3. I guess Perfect Balance could be nice as an emergency max Greased Lightnin generator CD, but its nice function as an AOE booster would be lost, and as a rapid buff/debuff applier poof. But yes, monk is easily the crutch of the plan. Well have to see how monk pvp turns out in 4.0 before we can hypothesize and theorycraft more.

Also, glad you got a laugh out of that arguement opener as well.