Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[ErryK]

snip

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

Actually, and ironically given current conversation, the minimum is 10% of your max MP.

That's incorrect:


You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

[Ama_Hamada]

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.



That's incorrect:


You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

This is why I said flare is about 1/2 the cost of holy, despite blm having quick mp regeneration.

healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less.

So it is very confusing what he is trying to get across, but increasing mp cost for DPS spells just because you do not like healer DPS is not a fix but a personal grievance.

but depending where you are on rotations, the cost of flare can be that to 1600 ish, I think 1600 ish is from full > fire >>> fire II spam till 1600 or so, then when you transpose to do the 2x fire II after that, the cost is more along the lines of 1000. Holy cost a huge amount of mp, and stack having healing on top of that with little mp regen tools.. yeah.. there is a reason why I am disagreeing with the so called "opinion" from someone that never set foot on a 60 whm , let alone end game on anything.

[Mycow8me]

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3 minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night. You keep bringing up flare for the MP comparison but I have been talking about fire II with 3 astral fire stacks which is 26XXMP and I stated that already. I don't know how many times I have to restate stuff to you. Its just not worth it.

[Ama_Hamada]

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Easy, because that is the only way to make it so healing does not have downtime like you want? (downtime as in sitting there not doing anything) If you increase MP use for DPS spells and increase the need of healing, you are just increasing downtime and making the game boring and most so hurting WHM. You only have one healing job to speak out of, the EASIEST healing job to manage DPS, MP, and healing. A lot of times in leveling DF you are 100% clerics cept maybe some bosses and some over the top mega pulls.

I really disagree with someone suggesting a change to the game that does not even have experience, that is why it matters.

[Atlaworks]

That's incorrect:


You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

That so? I just remember checking in 2.x and got that as an answer, and googled it again before my last post and got the same answer.

Not sayin' you're wrong though- just makes me wonder what the minimum MP formula is even more then. Thanks for shedding light on that!

So you are asking healers be board of their mind during group content because some people can't manage putting cleric stance on? I still do not get why people pick on cleric stance like this and not tank stances.. and they got TWO!

Remember what this thread was meant to be, that suggestion will make people stop playing healer more then bring in

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

[Belhi]

I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

The issue is the healing in this game is dull. The solution to that would be to nerf the potency of the healing in this game and adjust fight mechanics to both accommodate that. Simply put, as the game currently functions a healer that can only heal would spend a massive amount of time just doing nothing which is extremely boring. Imagine a scenario where you could only use one dps skill every 10 seconds or so. That would be pretty much what it would be like to heal anything minus any sense of progression since healing is more about sustaining the norm rather than working towards a goal.

I don't see them fixing the fundamental issues with the healing mechanics which has lead to healers focusing so much on dps. As it is I am pretty content with the additional challenge of knowing how to time my stance dancing to do dps without putting my healing at risk. The DPS I bring isn't necessary. They don't balance the fight around it. If a healer doesn't dps that doesn't make anything take longer than intended unless your other roles are underperforming. But having the option to use cleric stance to dps adds a risk reward aspect to the role that can feel rewarding to master.

The thing is that what would be required to make healing more fun would be inherently unpopular. No one likes getting nerfed, particularly since they would be across the board nerfs and all healers would feel seriously gimped from what they are used to, but also there are many who have come to like the existing model. Frankly the only option I see for them going forward is pretty much to build of what they have already done but include the aspect cleric stance brings where it creates some level of skill/risk in dpsing effectively.

[Ama_Hamada]

That so? I just remember checking in 2.x and got that as an answer, and googled it again before my last post and got the same answer.
Not sayin' you're wrong though- just makes me wonder what the minimum MP formula is even more then. Thanks for shedding light on that!


I really tire of hearing "If you don't let healers DPS you're gonna lose all your healers". I mean, if my WHM in any given party only was playing WHM to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that idea is great either, but I understand that Cleric Stance is MOSTLY there so healing classes can do solo content comfortably. Just like Sword Oath is.

There are ways to work this, but the fundamental to take away is "Trying to give healers more DPS won't give you more healers, it will give you more DPS playing healers to DPS". If you want to attract more healers who actually want to frickin' heal, the goal is to make healing more fun, not make DPSing easier.

You are not reading that correctly, if you suddenly change the game to make healers dps less, You will lose players that play healing roles in this game. I do not care if you are sick of it or not, fact is fact and people said so they will quit healing if they impact changes to take such effects. You want to make healing more fun? How about not having us do nothing for 2-3 minutes? that is why healers need respectable dps, something to do.

Also you are right, I am sick of DPS on tank jobs, take away Deliverance. We should take away, shield oath, sword oath, Defiance, Deliverance, grit, and make tanks do weak damage but take damage like they do now with their defensive ones, otherwise you will have 8 warriors rushes. Stance switching is too complex and needs to be made easier. that is what tone this thread sounds like when talking about why we need to remove cleric.

"I mean, if my WAR in any given party only was playing WAR to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party" (You can easily change job and ill fit)

And you will be very hard pressed to find a tank, maybe you have fun with one of them perma grit drks.

I hate the stance dancing play-style and it is the main reason I don't touch healing in this game. People like their stance dancing I get that, but that doesn't mean those who don't like it shouldn't have an option. I wish cleric stance was removed and replaced with something specific for a single job (preferably scholar). That way those who enjoy stance dancing will have their option and those who don't have theirs.

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

The topic is about healers not tanks, if I brought up tanks I would be going off topic. Although yes, I don't like stance dancing on tanks either.

[Atlaworks]

Let's dissect this.

You are not reading that correctly, if you suddenly change the game to make healers dps less, You will lose players that play healing roles in this game. I do not care if you are sick of it or not, fact is fact and people said so they will quit healing if they impact changes to take such effects. You want to make healing more fun? How about not having us do nothing for 2-3 minutes? that is why healers need respectable dps, something to do.

"If you take away healer DPS, you're gonna lose healers!" Again. Good. They can get out. I want a healer who wants to heal, not one who's so preoccupied with DPS that they'd quit if that aspect took a hit. They can piss off. If you want to fix healers- make healing more fun, don't just make them green DPS. That's how you get healers who focus more on DPS than healing.

Also you are right, I am sick of DPS on tank jobs, take away Deliverance. We should take away, shield oath, sword oath, Defiance, Deliverance, grit, and make tanks do weak damage but take damage like they do now with their defensive ones, otherwise you will have 8 warriors rushes. Stance switching is too complex and needs to be made easier. that is what tone this thread sounds like when talking about why we need to remove cleric.

"I mean, if my WAR in any given party only was playing WAR to DPS, I'd want that pile of rubbish out of my party" (You can easily change job and ill fit)

And you will be very hard pressed to find a tank, maybe you have fun with one of them perma grit drks.

"Waaaaah, if I can't have my healer DPs, how about we take out all tank stances! Offensive AND defensive! That'll show them! And make them weaker too! That's what that guy is saying!" Ya got me, tex. Despite me saying multiple times that "Healers are in a fine place for the most part" and "I'm cool with healers DPSing when they do their job correctly and don't focus constantly on their fucking DPS". I want all stances gone forever and everyone who's not a DPS to do terrible damage forever. You caught me! Now get out. Christ.

...And yeah, if I had a WAR tank who only sat in deliverance and I kept pulling enmity off of, and who told me to stop DPSing so he could DPS more and tank, I'd tell him to get out and kick his sorry arse out of the party too. I don't care about anyone DPSing long as they do their freaking job first and foremost.

and tanks is ok? it is a lot "harder" then cleric is. I still do not understand why people jump on cleric stance and are fine with tank stances when they are more of a pain to do well.

Tank stance dancing isn't actually that difficult- at least to me(But when I run WAR I just use a macro that swaps out Fell Cleave/Inner Beast and Decimate/Steel Cyclone on my hotbar, among other things), but I find it's a simple matter of "get enmity, then punch it". Again, first I do my job, then I make time to DPS. And DPS stances exist for a reason- tank swaps are a raid mechanic, and when you have two tanks and only one can be tanking the boss, you don't want the other to generate as much enmity. There's reason for it.

People jump on Cleric Stance because that's how party members die- when the healer wants to DPS more than they want to heal, and shirks their actual duty.

But, moving on to a more sensible post...

Many healer players, myself included, are playing the jobs precisely because they're hybrid type jobs in this game. If they were simplified by dropping half of their toolkit, many of those people would stop playing them. And wanting to play a hybrid type job (especially one that can be pretty demanding to optimise in the hardest content) does not make anyone "a pile of rubbish" as a player. In fact, one could argue the opposite.


With how the game is currently played (and hence designed), both Cleric Stance and tank DPS stances play a major part throughout the group content, so there's no base to this argument.

If you're more focused on DPS than healing, I don't believe you should be playing a healer- you should be playing a DPS. I don't want you guys to stop DPSing, I'm cool with it happening, but when when every healer arguement is whining over their DPS and how they want more and they hope they get holyga for the next expansion instead of an actual valuable toolkit skill, it makes me think those folks need to take a step back and look at the role they're queuing for.

I'm not asking for half your toolkit to be gone. That would be stupid. I'm saying that the class who's role is healer shouldn't be so focused and obsessed with DPS- half their toolkit shouldn't BE DPS skills in the first place. Do your job first, ya damn layabout. And when you want more skills, maybe think of ways to make healing more fun instead of "Give me more DPS". You're not a DPS. Want more, go play a DPS. Need one that is a hybrid but has big numbers that you want? Go play summoner.

[Sebazy]

"If you take away healer DPS, you're gonna lose healers!" Again. Good. They can get out. I want a healer who wants to heal, not one who's so preoccupied with DPS that they'd quit if that aspect took a hit. They can piss off. If you want to fix healers- make healing more fun, don't just make them green DPS. That's how you get healers who focus more on DPS than healing.

And I'll say it again, you clearly don't understand how little healing is actually required in the bulk of content in this game. I suspect most of the people who are objecting to healer DPS being removed are of that mindset because frankly, there's very little else to do even as an AST. It's not that half of our toolkit is DPS, it's that the majority of encounters entirely revolve around doing DPS.

Some math for you. Looking over the last expert I logged, I cast 55 heals in a 17:30 run with 401 casts in total. So lets go with 1 in 7 casts being a heal, the rest being dps. Cleric stance was up for over 80% of the run. The run was entirely safe, no one died, no one was sweating. So what's going on here?

I'm a career healer/support who's likely cast more heals than many people on this forum have had hot dinners (And I've got a 4 digit magelo profile to back that up). Why am I doing so much more dps than I am healing? Because there is literally nothing else to do with my GCDs beyond giving in and just watching rubbish on netflix/youtube whilst mashing 1 key with the tank on follow. I'd much rather be buffing, healing and doing actual support work like I could in FFXI with my BRD but that's just not an option and frankly with 4 man groups, I'm not sure it's even a possibility.

If you want to play the disagree=kick game, save it for SE themselves as this situation is entirely their fault, AST in it's current form is both a massive mistake and a missed opportunity. Unless we get a new healer class mid expansion or the class design team manage to do a full scale rejig of AST around buffing rather than personal DPS, things just aren't going to change unless Yoshida is willing to up the base difficulty of the game as a whole for healers whilst also dialling back the speed at which players progress with gear.