Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[ErryK]

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

[Atlaworks]

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Actually, and ironically given current conversation, the minimum is 10% of your max MP.

[Mycow8me]

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

Thats the point, strategizing your MP pool. If you think its insane that's also perfectly fine, you obviously enjoy the DPS meta for healer at the moment. I didn't say healers shouldn't be DPSing but I do believe we spend more time DPSing than healing but your mileage will vary. I don't enjoy it but I don't currently hate it either. I WOULD on the other hand appreciate a more healing focused meta but often times anyone who tries to come up with an idea is ostracized or a part of some kind of healer minority. That doesn't make my opinion worthless though, I would enjoy scholar more if the focus was healing more so than it is now. My ideas towards higher cost dps, clerics removal, and more overall damage output on the group was a means to that end and nothing more than that. I'm sure there are other ideas out there but they would probably be hit with the same retribution that I've been hit with which is why they probably don't post, or maybe we really are a minority and almost everyone is happy with healer the way it is now. Regardless my opinion is still here. It doesn't hold as much weight for whm but it does for scholar. I haven't played astro and probably won't.

[Ayer2015]

As someone who has always mained a healer and does DPS without issue current state, I support the removal of cleric stance and having healer dps scale off MND. Cleric stance is cumbersome and not fictionally needed. 4.0 is supposed to be about closing skill gap after all....

[Ama_Hamada]

Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.



So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

Say it with me now.
This is not 2.0
this is not 2.0
this is not 2.0

No it is not the same. You really need more experience. It is not a discredit, it is just hard to relate when you have little experience.

That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.

But that does not work! Even if we assume that is what the person meant, it is TOO HARD ON WHM MP! to make matters worse, he is not experienced in WHM to know if it is a good idea or not. If you are going to try limit DPS over the use of cleric stance or enlarging the mp cost, I pick cleric. There is no issue with cleric stance, if they take it out they better take out tank stance dancing because there is a good number that can't do it right and makes it too hard to heal. If clerics is too hard then all DPS in this game is too hard.

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

exactly. Increasing MP cost just breaks more then solve.

As someone who has always mained a healer and does DPS without issue current state, I support the removal of cleric stance and having healer dps scale off MND. Cleric stance is cumbersome and not fictionally needed. 4.0 is supposed to be about closing skill gap after all....

Can we close the gap with tanks and remove tank stances?

[ErryK]

snip

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

Actually, and ironically given current conversation, the minimum is 10% of your max MP.

That's incorrect:


You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

[Sebazy]

I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

Indeed, to put some numbers on these facts, I can typically maintain an 80% or higher cleric stance uptime in expert almost entirely irrespective of how good or bad the group is. Whereas on A12s, my SCH managed around a 70% uptime on cleric on our very first kill within 5 days of us entering the instance back in like early October a few weeks after it was released, (aka we most certainly weren't overgearing it).

Limiting healers from DPSing via excessive MP costs is the wrong fix for the issue at hand here going on 4 years after rerelease. If even Stormblood fixes this with new abilities and better tuned content, think about how mindwarpingly dull this is going to make pre 61 roulettes and story content which will still be run on a regular basis.

IMO the best solution is sadly a number of different things. Reducing the pace at which VIT scales upwards with iLvl would help slow down the power creep without making new gear feel less impactful. That would need to be coupled with a rethink on how bosses output the bulk of their damage. Huge but well spaced hits are easy to handle with embrace and regens. Higher paced auto attack damage coupled with smaller but more frequent mini tank buster hits such as what was seen with T4's dreadnoughts or T1's caduceus during earlyish progression. T5's death sentence mechanic was another good example where both healers had their work cut out with debuff chains alongside both stoneskin and adlo being flat out required to survive each hit pretty quickly into the encounter. T11 style cleaves and shared hits are another great means to increase the workload without resorting to cheese mechanics.

I suppose the biggest thing of all of course, is that SE absolutely need to understand that having huge long periods of time where the supposed final type zero boss of an entire expansion sits there slowly auto attacking for 3.5k damage a significant amount of the encounter. I've healed in mmos for approaching 20 years now and I can't say I've ever seen a closing boss that is as wimpy and nonchalant as Alexander Prime. Bahamut Prime may not have been the stiffest challenge either, but at least he did a decent job of trying to make an overcooked pancake out of the tanks =(

[Ama_Hamada]

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.



That's incorrect:


You're saying I'd need minimum 1133MP to cast Flare, but I'm sitting at 979MP and able to cast it.

This is why I said flare is about 1/2 the cost of holy, despite blm having quick mp regeneration.

healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less.

So it is very confusing what he is trying to get across, but increasing mp cost for DPS spells just because you do not like healer DPS is not a fix but a personal grievance.

but depending where you are on rotations, the cost of flare can be that to 1600 ish, I think 1600 ish is from full > fire >>> fire II spam till 1600 or so, then when you transpose to do the 2x fire II after that, the cost is more along the lines of 1000. Holy cost a huge amount of mp, and stack having healing on top of that with little mp regen tools.. yeah.. there is a reason why I am disagreeing with the so called "opinion" from someone that never set foot on a 60 whm , let alone end game on anything.

[Mycow8me]

Don't play SCH if you're trying to opt for a more MP-strategized role. You want WHM because WHM has MP issues. SCH is healing easy mode or lax-mode, whichever you want, because the fairy makes your MP problems whittle away, and Aetherflow just makes it worse. Or just go with a 0 PIE gearset.

The only way we're getting a more healing-focused meta is if the content demands the kind of healing you're expecting. What you're essentially asking for is that everyone takes exactly 50% HP every 3 seconds, so that every GCD from both healers is spent on AoE heals, and the healers can't output any damage, there's your healing meta. Hope you enjoy running out of MP after 3 min.

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3 minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night. You keep bringing up flare for the MP comparison but I have been talking about fire II with 3 astral fire stacks which is 26XXMP and I stated that already. I don't know how many times I have to restate stuff to you. Its just not worth it.

[Ama_Hamada]

Sigh, why does everyone take someones argument and assume the worst possible case scenario as the only viable outcome. No I did not ask to bottom MP out after 3minutes, no I am not asking that everyone take 50% hp every 3 seconds, and no I'm not asking that every GCD be spent healing.

How does "I would appreciate a more healing focused meta" Translate to I want to heal 50%HP of every party member every 3 seconds, continue GCDing healing spells and be unable to do any DPS.

Screw it, I got a headache and im just going to play the game. Healers are going to continue mostly DPSing in stormblood anyway. Scholar is my 3rd job on my favorite to play list. I'd care more if the conversation was about warrior.

Edit: And Ama, I don't mean anything against whm even if you seem to think I have been attacking the class. I enjoyed whm back in 2.0 somewhat but left it due to this same DPS meta. I found scholar more fun probably cause of its mitigation meta more so than its ability to heal. If you think my opinions not an opinion or whatever so be it, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Easy, because that is the only way to make it so healing does not have downtime like you want? (downtime as in sitting there not doing anything) If you increase MP use for DPS spells and increase the need of healing, you are just increasing downtime and making the game boring and most so hurting WHM. You only have one healing job to speak out of, the EASIEST healing job to manage DPS, MP, and healing. A lot of times in leveling DF you are 100% clerics cept maybe some bosses and some over the top mega pulls.

I really disagree with someone suggesting a change to the game that does not even have experience, that is why it matters.