Question On HNM's

[RemVye]

I have to disagree with you on adding 24-72 hour World spawn HNM's.
Other than what everyone is saying about botting, time sink, drop rates, boring, mpk, etc etc..

You said something along the lines of "they could offer the same gear that you would get in an instance" and that they would "add content to the game".

I'm assuming that being an HNM would mean that they would require a group of people to fight, correct? Why would anyone want to camp around for up to 3 days for a chance to claim a NM, that has a small chance to drop gear? Especially if the same gear or equal gear is dropped in an instance run where there is no competition, can be completed on your own time, and you can develop a meaningful strategy opposed to just claiming the pop then tank n spank?

People will always take the route of least resistance, which in my opinion would be doing an instance run over camping NM's. Which would leave this "New Content" untapped by the majority of people. I'm sure some people would still camp it, but why would a party of 8 people camp an HNM for days over doing an instance run?

Times have changed, people play multiple games, have lives, and many don't want to spend their lives rotting in front of a PC over some digital gear that will eventually be obsolete. Pending this games survival, there will be level cap raises, expansions, new classes, jobs and all of that will make these HNM drops pretty useless.

I'm all for challenging and engaging content but I am certainly not for a "who can claim" "who can bot" "who can sit here the longest" competition.

As someone else stated, fighting for a claim does not make something difficult. Nor does sitting there for countless hours basically doing nothing while waiting for a respawn. Reading most, if not all, the posts in this thread it's clear that very few people believe this should be implemented into FFXIV. I am also into making these types of things instanced with difficulty.

[Shipp]

Not going to respond to each point individually, because at the end of it, what you're basically doing is arguing against people having another option of how to obtain items, for no other reason than:

1) You were doing "real HNMs" while people were doing Valkurm Emperor - I have no idea how that's relevant at all to the conversation and, frankly, seems like gratuitous ego-stroking on your part. What you were camping or when has absolutely zero relevance to this discussion, or the suggestion I've put forth. How the drops were handled on the HNMs you fought back when you fought them is not the kind of system I'm suggesting.

You said:
Remember how it was handled in FFXI with rare/ex items? They put rare/ex versions of items (Emperor Hairpin, etc) on the world mobs and placed the non rare/ex versions as possible rewards in BCNMs.


No, only regular NMs were handled that way at first. Emperor Hairpin is from Valkurm, not an HNM. This thread is discussing HNMs and how THEY were handled. It finally changed later, but for years you were required to camp if you wanted the gear.

2) You don't enjoy aspects of it yourself - You are not, nor do you represent everybody.

3) You don't know anyone who "genuinely enjoyed it" - Irrelevant. You do not know nor represent the preferences of every player on every server.

Didn't say I did, though in all my years of playing XI, I never once heard, "I actually like sitting around for 3 hours where I'm afk or talking to people for 29 minutes between each window." Since you've made plenty of assumptions, and still refuse to actually read what I type and just take it for what it is without over-analyzing it and assigning some non-existent double speak to it, I'll go out on a limb and make an educated guess here. I never heard even 1 person say what I just mentioned, yet I heard the majority of people on my server say they hated camping kings, or they only liked the actual fighting and the funny drama going on at the camping. My educated guess here, is that people didn't like the 3 hour mechanics of actually camping. The liked the drama and the mob fighting.

4) You can't imagine anyone enjoying the camping aspect of it - That's called an Appeal To Incredulity. It's a logical fallacy, not a valid counter-argument. That you can't imagine there's anyone who would enjoy it has no bearing on the fact that there are.

I didn't say nobody enjoys it. I said I can't imagine anyone enjoying it. I'm college educated, you can quit trying to pull out the logical fallacies you learned in debate class when your prior posts were twisting my words to mean something I didn't say and complete assumptions of various things.

So your entire argument is based around what you personally like or dislike, what you presume others like or don't like, and whether or not you can believe someone would like something you don't like.

Let me break it down for you one last time since you're just a bit stubborn and refuse to think of the possibility that you misread my previous statements, even after I clarified them.

I do not want to see HNMs as they were implemented in XI prior to drops being available other ways.
Why:
1. 21-24 hour spawns create obsessive behavior.
2. 3 hour windows encourage botting.
3. If the exact same drops were available in an instanced version of the fight, the majority of players are going to to that. When there is no competition for world spawns, there is no difference from going to some place on a map and killing a boss walking around that nobody has claimed versus going to an instance and killing that monster for the exact same loot.

It is wasted development time for a small portion of the playerbase.

Now, my alternative:
1. Keep world HNMs on a longer timer, around 21-24 hours.
2. Decide on a set number of hours after the boss is killed that it will spawn. Ex: If they choose 22 hours, then after that monster is killed, 22 hours from the ToD it will 100% respawn that very minute.
3. Cut out the waiting around for 3 hours and I'd largely be fine with the idea.
4. Do not allow HNMs to drop a piece of crap crystal as their only loot, or another piece of crap like a generic <mob type> whisker.

Do you understand my stance now?

The thing is.. people have stated - right in these forums - that they'd like to have that kind of content in the game. A few people I've spoken to in-game have noted that they'd like to have that kind of content in the game.

They don't ever explain what PART of that content they enjoyed. Did people secretly love the aspect of sitting around a camp for 3 hours waiting until the very last window for when a lesser king would spawn? I didn't see love for that aspect, and I have seen no posts clarifying that a lot of people do indeed love that aspect. I know people who liked the social aspect, the drama, and the actual fights.

Please, anyone reading this who loves sitting around for 3 hours doing nothing except chatting with people, please tell me you love sitting in a virtual chat room doing nothing but talking for 3 hours so you can have a chance out out-claiming the bots that every linkshell has and actually fight the mob. PLEASE inform me that you love sitting around doing nothing in the same spot for 3 hours since this is the only aspect that I have said I am against.

Even if they only accounted for 20% of the population, that's still 20% of the population who would have the option to partake in content they enjoy.

I absolutely can not understand what you would have against that... beyond not wanting content to be in the game unless you like it personally.

Because you fail to actually read my post without injecting your own hypothesis into it as to why I think the way I do.

As for 1-to-1 matches hardly ever happening in rare drops...Whether or not you were fighting HNMs while others were fighting NMs, or when you were fighting them is, again, completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that a system such as that used for regular NM drops could also be implemented in XIV to the same effect - giving people the option of how they prefer to obtain a certain item which would have the same stats no matter how it's obtained.

And that is fine. I don't care if people never stepped foot in endgame, my point was that the topic is discussing HNMs. I AM AGAINST HOW THEY WERE IMPLEMENTED IN XI. I am NOT against HNMs being added in a different way that does not cause people to sit with their thumbs up their butts for 3 hours in a tree.

A person with an Emperor Hairpin was statistically no better or worse off than someone with an Empress Hairpin. Outside the rare/ex status, they're identical. The only difference is how the item was obtained and that people had the option of how they preferred to get one for them self.

I know the stats. My point was that Empress wasn't in the game for YEARS. I am speaking directly of a very specific part of XI. HNM mechanics before they were made useless by instances. I was not originally talking about NMs in my post prior to you bringing them in. I was talking about KINGS prior to TOAU.

Despite your best efforts to paint yourself otherwise, despite all your rationalizations, your overall stance fits you squarely into the category of people I speak out against regularly... those who feel that because they don't like something, that it shouldn't exist - even if they have the option not to do it.

Again, you see me as that because you have failed to read my posts without assuming things. Instead of assuming I mean something that I'm not clear about, ask me about it. It makes you look far more foolish when you jump the gun and start attacking someone based on your own assumptions which turn out to be false.

Edit: Just saw this post by you, Shipp, and it was so perfect that I just had to edit it in.. Consider it a reminder for you to not be a hypocrite, delivered in your own words.

And again, that doesn't even apply, because I'm not arguing against something that won't affect me. Consider taking some reading comprehension classes, because it's clearly not an area you're strong in.

[Shipp]

I have to disagree with you on adding 24-72 hour World spawn HNM's.
Other than what everyone is saying about botting, time sink, drop rates, boring, mpk, etc etc..

You said something along the lines of "they could offer the same gear that you would get in an instance" and that they would "add content to the game".

I'm assuming that being an HNM would mean that they would require a group of people to fight, correct? Why would anyone want to camp around for up to 3 days for a chance to claim a NM, that has a small chance to drop gear? Especially if the same gear or equal gear is dropped in an instance run where there is no competition, can be completed on your own time, and you can develop a meaningful strategy opposed to just claiming the pop then tank n spank?

People will always take the route of least resistance, which in my opinion would be doing an instance run over camping NM's. Which would leave this "New Content" untapped by the majority of people. I'm sure some people would still camp it, but why would a party of 8 people camp an HNM for days over doing an instance run?

Times have changed, people play multiple games, have lives, and many don't want to spend their lives rotting in front of a PC over some digital gear that will eventually be obsolete. Pending this games survival, there will be level cap raises, expansions, new classes, jobs and all of that will make these HNM drops pretty useless.

I'm all for challenging and engaging content but I am certainly not for a "who can claim" "who can bot" "who can sit here the longest" competition.

As someone else stated, fighting for a claim does not make something difficult. Nor does sitting there for countless hours basically doing nothing while waiting for a respawn. Reading most, if not all, the posts in this thread it's clear that very few people believe this should be implemented into FFXIV. I am also into making these types of things instanced with difficulty.

This was exactly my point, assuming that it's 3 hour windows and lesser kings pop for the first few days with a CHANCE of the actual King popping after that.

If only 20% are doing the content, that content is not being utilized by the majority of people. If it's something not being utilized by the majority of people, then they are using the majority of people's money for development of something the minority (by a large margin) are going to participate in. They could better spend their time by creating more content for -everyone- or the majority of people.

[Amage]

This was exactly my point, assuming that it's 3 hour windows and lesser kings pop for the first few days with a CHANCE of the actual King popping after that.

If only 20% are doing the content, that content is not being utilized by the majority of people. If it's something not being utilized by the majority of people, then they are using the majority of people's money for development of something the minority (by a large margin) are going to participate in. They could better spend their time by creating more content for -everyone- or the majority of people.

Its plain and simple SE keeps this 8 man party content and all these spam instance and NMs this game will not servive in 2.0 there has to be some sort of attraction to this game , Not saying make this game in to XI but learn from its success and not forget them . Do you think XI would have been great if all HNM's NM's were 15min spawn and gear negated in every patch ?

Do you think killing Ifrit and getting all the weapons from it going to be good @ 1.20 patch ?
Answer : Nope
One thing that XI did well is all the work you put in to get Byakko hadate and Kirin Osode wasnt negated with every ver. Update, Sure there was More gear that was released but your older gear was still important . Personally i blame companies like EA Blizzard Activision in dumbing down all video games

Look at all the MMO's being released all are ither wow clones or have Star wars slapped on it , same thing with COD same game rehased over and over . Madden prime example when hit stick was put into the game was a very good feature then after that they just release the same game with something no one really uses or cares about like create a player in i think Madden 07 where you can size the players ass really really .. /rant

all im saying all the new gen. of players are whining kids who instead of getting hit with the belt were the ones demanding and getting what they wanted the world doesnt work that way ...

If they Place HNM's or they dont This game will only be good for 2-3 weeks at every patch . Buying gear is pointless , busting your butt is a thing of the past "Easy Mode" = Everything




thats my rant sorry

[Shipp]

Its plain and simple SE keeps this 8 man party content and all these spam instance and NMs this game will not servive in 2.0 there has to be some sort of attraction to this game , Not saying make this game in to XI but learn from its success and not forget them . Do you think XI would have been great if all HNM's NM's were 15min spawn and gear negated in every patch ?

Do you think killing Ifrit and getting all the weapons from it going to be good @ 1.20 patch ?
Answer : Nope
One thing that XI did well is all the work you put in to get Byakko hadate and Kirin Osode wasnt negated with every ver. Update, Sure there was More gear that was released but your older gear was still important . Personally i blame companies like EA Blizzard Activision in dumbing down all video games

Look at all the MMO's being released all are ither wow clones or have Star wars slapped on it , same thing with COD same game rehased over and over . Madden prime example when hit stick was put into the game was a very good feature then after that they just release the same game with something no one really uses or cares about like create a player in i think Madden 07 where you can size the players ass really really .. /rant

all im saying all the new gen. of players are whining kids who instead of getting hit with the belt were the ones demanding and getting what they wanted the world doesnt work that way ...

If they Place HNM's or they dont This game will only be good for 2-3 weeks at every patch . Buying gear is pointless , busting your butt is a thing of the past "Easy Mode" = Everything




thats my rant sorry

Your rant is misplaced. No, this game will not survive in today's MMO market if people have to keep running the exact same content for years like XI was. That WILL NOT WORK. I also don't want to see every patch completely obliterate the last patch's content and gear. There is a happy medium. Artificially inflating time sinks by making a monster spawn once every 3-4 days with a lesser version spawning on the 21-24 hour mark that anyone who wants to participate in endgame has to camp and get lucky with drops and have the best bot to claim is not the way to go.

I don't understand why people are reading what I'm writing, then taking my post in a whole different direction than what it actually says. Endgame consisting of primarily world spawn HNMs on a long timer will not work. Endgame consisting of multiple activities such as dynamis, BCNMs, actual dungeons that have lore relevance (not the XI equivalent of, "Ok, go kill normal mobs in here for hours) like other MMOs and even previous FF games are needed. We need actual dungeons like how previous games do them, Gizamaluke's Grotto from IX comes to mind. Make dungeons where there is relevance to you actually being in lore-wise. You fight trash on the way to other bosses in the dungeon and then fight your way to the final boss of the dungeon. This is one aspect where WoW has done right.

People should be continuing to sub because they enjoy the game, not because SE is forcing people to rerun content for years if they are interested in any sort of endgame activity.

[Ruisu]

Man, remember that one NM in Valkrum dunes that dropped some exceptional gear for that level? But you had to wait 6 hours for him to pop? And then you were 0/16 on that item? Boy that sure was fun!

This game does not need more time sinks. You FFXI players complained when getting a Chocobo in FFXIV was too easy (because it was so hard in previous FF games, amirite?) and we got an 8 hour series of fetch quests for a chocobo.

This is 2011, we don't need time sinks in an MMO, we need fun. I've had more challenging encounters in FFXIV than FFXI, it's not a matter of how much time you're putting into the game, it's actually got some hard as shit fights, without being an endurance run. Ifrit (Hyper) is really difficult to take down, but he's like, what? A 10-30 minute fight?

I'm happy with the 5-15 minute respawn, it's quick, and painless. Don't ruin a good thing.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I wouldn't mind them as an Alternative to current endgame gear, but never for sole exclusive good gear.
If you are suggesting it should be just like in FFXI, I could only assume this is a thread created by someone who dislikes this game, and is trying to sabotage the DEVs impression of what players want.

In no shape or form, is the FFXI form of HNMs ever going to be helpful to this game.

If only 20% are doing the content, that content is not being utilized by the majority of people. If it's something not being utilized by the majority of people, then they are using the majority of people's money for development of something the minority (by a large margin) are going to participate in. They could better spend their time by creating more content for -everyone- or the majority of people.

Exactly.
That means 80% will get bored, and quit the game.
Not because these are the players we want gone. We are talking about some of our friends just getting bored having stuck with the game for years, and never actually doing anything.

I'm not talking about lazy ppl complaining.
I'm talking about hard working, good players, who simply let their ability go to waste.

It's poor design, and the money spent to make this, will only be better spent else where.

Maybe if FFXIV became the best game of all time, could i see the time to add it somewhat ok~

[Andrien]

I understand where you're coming from OP, but I do not consider LV50 to be an appropriate level for HNM. In FFXI, HNM was not introduced until the first expansion, and until a few level caps was broken.

People may have different feelings about this. I Just wanted to add my own thoughts in more detail. I'm still against it though

[quantumsaint]

I understand where you're coming from OP, but I do not consider LV50 to be an appropriate level for HNM. In FFXI, HNM was not introduced until the first expansion, and until a few level caps was broken.

People may have different feelings about this. I Just wanted to add my own thoughts in more detail. I'm still against it though

The first LB actually.

The First Limit Break Quest

* The Level Cap is raised to 55. To continue to level 51, players must complete “In Defiant Challenge.”

* Valkurm Dunes is added to the title screen.
* High Level Notorious Monsters, such as Behemoth, are added to their respective areas.

http://jpbutton.bluegartr.com/?p=157

[Andrien]

Well in one of the concept art there is a Behemoth. Perhaps the level cap may be broken to 60 in v2.0