Tank Stances.

[Jhett_Magnum]

Is the reduced damage you deal still needed on tank stances at this point?

Keep the emnity multiplier and the free defense cd, but '86 the damage nerf. I don't think it changes anything tbh.

[Awful]

You don't need tank stance you can run around in an expert/60 dungeon without it all I do is group up all the adds and Spam Abyssal drain while Scourging everything and having Salted Earth down I never lose threat. I don't know what you mean by the 86 damage nerf though, nothing in this game can outright kill a tank from 100-0 in a fast amount of time.

Even in raids tanks are out of their tank stances most of the time the only reason to go back into it is for a tank buster really.

[Jpec07]

You don't need tank stance you can run around in an expert/60 dungeon without it all I do is group up all the adds and Spam Abyssal drain while Scourging everything and having Salted Earth down I never lose threat. I don't know what you mean by the 86 damage nerf though, nothing in this game can outright kill a tank from 100-0 in a fast amount of time.

I promise your healers are swearing when you do this.

[Awful]

I promise your healers are swearing when you do this.

No they don't, I always have a defensive up and Abyssal Drain crit heals me for 1700 normally I haven't had any complaints at all.

[Jpec07]

No they don't, I always have a defensive up and Abyssal Drain crit heals me for 1700 normally I haven't had any complaints at all.

They can't because they're too busy spamming Cure II on you.

Back on topic, though, OP is talking about how, when you have your tank stance on, you do 20% less damage. OP would like to see that number reduced so that your tank stance PPS is the same as your stance-less PPS. I'd personally be okay with a change like that. For most tanks, this might convince them to use their tank stance more often.

[Awful]

They can't because they're too busy spamming Cure II on you.

You're joking right? Do you play Drk at all? You realize that with a Shadowskin and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain not only makes AoE groups die faster, but actually healing me taking stress off the healer? And if the healer is DPSing while i'm doing this then they have to heal less more DPS > ends the trash faster thus requiring less healing while I can sustain myself and have Sole Survivor up healing me for another 7.5k. But yeah they're totally spamming Cure IIs :P.

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

[SpookyGhost]

Removing the damage down from tank stance only works if you also increase the damage output of mobs/bosses. As long as DPS stance gives more DPS than tank stance and there's no gDPS gain from being in tank stance then people will just continue to tank in DPS stance.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

You are incorrect sir.

Gritless Abyssal Drain hits for about 1.2-1.7K depending on gear/party buffs, 2K+ with a crit. If you're tanking 10 mobs and getting a 1.7K heal per mob every other GCD with a cooldown or two up, a healer that is spamming Cure 2 is bad. You could probably not even pop a cooldown if the healer just throws a regen on you.

Once Blood Price has fallen, you can maintain AoE DPS and hate by using (Blood Weapon) Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > Delirium > (Dark Arts) Abyssal Drain > repeat (similar to low-level GLA/PLD using Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash) and supplement this with some of your beefier CDs. Gritless expert dungeons are fast and absolutely doable with minimal healer stress.

[Jhett_Magnum]

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

Stance dancing for DRK wouldn't change when you think about it. You're forgetting how Important Blood weapon is.

Only thing that changes for us DRK mains is that we are punished less DPS wise for mp utility.

[Jpec07]

You're joking right? Do you play Drk at all? You realize that with a Shadowskin and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain not only makes AoE groups die faster, but actually healing me taking stress off the healer? And if the healer is DPSing while i'm doing this then they have to heal less more DPS > ends the trash faster thus requiring less healing while I can sustain myself and have Sole Survivor up healing me for another 7.5k. But yeah they're totally spamming Cure IIs :P.

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

Can we drop this idea that dropping your tank stance makes you a good tank? It's bullshit, and not something people should strive towards when they're still learning the job. Your number one job as a tank is to keep things hitting you. Dropping your tank stance is antithetical to this.

"But DPS!"

You are a TANK. You're not a Dragoon. You're not a Ninja. You're not a Monk. You're not a Samurai. Your job is to focus enemy damage on yourself and survive it. If you want to do better DPS, go play one of those jobs. Tanking well means minimizing the chances of losing threat, and minimizing the chances of dying.

It doesn't make you somehow better if you like to play more dangerously. It makes you a liability. Yes, maximize your damage output (because that's how mitigation in this game works), but don't do so at the cost of making it easier for you to lose hate. Say you have a SMN who, after using Quelling Strikes on their first Dreadwyrm Trance, gets a lucky string of crits while setting up their second. While you're sitting there with your stanceless sea urchins, the mobs (except for your main target) all turn away and nuke the SMN before either you or the healer can react.

Also, yes, I do DRK. It's quite fun when PLD gets boring and my FC healer claims to be too tired to heal me on WAR. But in my experience in sitting next to said healer, DA-AD doesn't heal for anywhere near enough to be sustainable (even on big pulls). Almost invariably, I hear from her how I'm being hit really hard, even when I do exactly what you're doing. I'd challenge you, next time you're in a dungeon, to ask your healer to only use Regen on you while you're doing that and see how long you last.

Of course this also is a symptom of the fact that healers in this game are way too powerful for the amounts of damage that mobs put out. There is almost no consequence for this type of reckless playstyle, because healers can usually just heal through the damage anyway, with almost no downside.